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Thread: DDFI-3 tuning with stock o2 sensor

  1. #31
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    There is something I´d like to share with you...take a look at this:

    o2.jpg

    In the stock eeprom, lean O2 voltage is set at 0.415v while rich is set at 0.562. They´re one the white fields.
    Lines below the stock calibration (gray) are from a tuned map I received from a "tuner" I got to know here in Brazil. I tried to understand why he does this but nothing came to my mind. The rich voltage I think I understand...the o2 sensor signal has to be higher than stock for the ECM to understand mixture is rich and apply a correction.
    Have you ever seen this kind of tuning on Buells? Does this make the ECM run richer than stoich!? It seems too easy to be true to me...

  2. #32
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    No, that won't make it run richer widening the voltage from lean to rich will just slow the "bounce" between lean/rich. What it will do is make the 02 reading less effective and subsequent ECU self adjusting much less effective.

    The bounce that I refer to is how a narrow band is supposed to work reading constantly from lean to rich when the cells are just right it will evenly go back and forth and AFV will be dialed at 100%.

    Here is a more in depth explanation:

    "How does the O2 sensor measure the fuel mixture?

    An Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator. It is constantly making a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust system and air outside the engine. A Zirconium stabilized yttrium oxide ceramic shell is coated with a layer of platinum. When the nose is heated the platinum will begin to react with the exhaust gasses and a voltage potential will form between the inner and outer layers. The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is not conductive. This voltage output of the sensor is usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. A rich mixture leave very little free oxygen and the reaction will send out a voltage greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean, all fuel is burned, and the extra oxygen leaves the cylinder and flows into the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen seen is 0.2 to 0.7 volts. The mid point is about 0.45 volts. This is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor will not spend any time at 0.45 volts. The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high and low voltage. Manufacturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark O2 cross counts. The higher the number of O2 cross counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer control system are working. It is important to remember that the O2 sensor is comparing the amount of oxygen inside and outside the engine. If the outside of the sensor should become blocked, or coated with oil, this comparison is not possible. Also if the exhaust side of the sensor has been contaminated by using leaded fuels or gasket sealers which are not specifically identified as being approved for use with oxygen sensors the sensor can be permanently damaged."

    taken from here http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums...hp/t-2665.html

    Think about what the tuner has done like this:

    If stock 02 values were two tennis players this would be on a regular court

    If the tuners values are used the two tennis players are now standing twice as far from the net then they would before so the ball has to travel much further between the two players.

    Does that make sense to you?

    If you have tuned your closed loop with his values, you have most likely cheated the ECU's adjustment ability... and yes, I realize his values are closer to what was quoted BUT they both cross the .45, just one tighter than the other. I'm sure Buell did this for a reason... I would ask him why he has done this and how he came up with this, also what is this supposed to achieve according to him?

    At this point everything is now an unknown because I was unaware you had drivability/running issues. I thought you were after tuning above and beyond the stock map. Are you in possession of a known stock map? One that for sure has not been messed with?
    Last edited by lowkey; 02-18-2017 at 02:59 AM.

  3. #33
    Senior Member Cooter's Avatar
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    Thank you both for a in depth explanation of the basics. I'll be watching this thread and maybe even chime in if I actually have something valuable to say


    I'm currently custom tuning a new set up on my STT and went with the innovate WB with both O2 sensors after I welded a bung in a doner header. I never heard what AZ said about a bad narrow band output from the Innovate system before? I wonder if it was just an anomaly that someone passed around as a 'true fact about all of them'? That stuff happens a lot...

    I'll see if I can lay the NB output next to the WB reading and see if the voltage switches predictably. Should be super easy to see if they correlate.
    I tuned a 1967 Big Block Chevy with the system when I built a port fuel injection system for it and had no issues there, even though there was no stock ECM to trick with a NB O2 sensor.

  4. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    No, that won't make it run richer widening the voltage from lean to rich will just slow the "bounce" between lean/rich. What it will do is make the 02 reading less effective and subsequent ECU self adjusting much less effective.

    The bounce that I refer to is how a narrow band is supposed to work reading constantly from lean to rich when the cells are just right it will evenly go back and forth and AFV will be dialed at 100%.

    Here is a more in depth explanation:

    "How does the O2 sensor measure the fuel mixture?

    An Oxygen sensor is a chemical generator. It is constantly making a comparison between the Oxygen inside the exhaust system and air outside the engine. A Zirconium stabilized yttrium oxide ceramic shell is coated with a layer of platinum. When the nose is heated the platinum will begin to react with the exhaust gasses and a voltage potential will form between the inner and outer layers. The sensor does not begin to generate it's full output until it reaches about 600 degrees F. Prior to this time the sensor is not conductive. This voltage output of the sensor is usually between 0 and 1.1 volts. A rich mixture leave very little free oxygen and the reaction will send out a voltage greater than 0.45 volts. If the engine is running lean, all fuel is burned, and the extra oxygen leaves the cylinder and flows into the exhaust. In this case, the sensor voltage goes lower than 0.45 volts. Usually the output range seen seen is 0.2 to 0.7 volts. The mid point is about 0.45 volts. This is neither rich nor lean. A fully warm O2 sensor will not spend any time at 0.45 volts. The O2 sensor is constantly in a state of transition between high and low voltage. Manufacturers call this crossing of the 0.45 volt mark O2 cross counts. The higher the number of O2 cross counts, the better the sensor and other parts of the computer control system are working. It is important to remember that the O2 sensor is comparing the amount of oxygen inside and outside the engine. If the outside of the sensor should become blocked, or coated with oil, this comparison is not possible. Also if the exhaust side of the sensor has been contaminated by using leaded fuels or gasket sealers which are not specifically identified as being approved for use with oxygen sensors the sensor can be permanently damaged."

    taken from here http://www.buelletinboard.com/forums...hp/t-2665.html

    Think about what the tuner has done like this:

    If stock 02 values were two tennis players this would be on a regular court

    If the tuners values are used the two tennis players are now standing twice as far from the net then they would before so the ball has to travel much further between the two players.

    Does that make sense to you?

    If you have tuned your closed loop with his values, you have most likely cheated the ECU's adjustment ability... and yes, I realize his values are closer to what was quoted BUT they both cross the .45, just one tighter than the other. I'm sure Buell did this for a reason... I would ask him why he has done this and how he came up with this, also what is this supposed to achieve according to him?

    At this point everything is now an unknown because I was unaware you had drivability/running issues. I thought you were after tuning above and beyond the stock map. Are you in possession of a known stock map? One that for sure has not been messed with?
    Very rich information the ones you're quoting here!

    I'll get in touch with this guy next week and ask him about why he has done this. But just for you to know, this is not the eeprom file I am tuning. It is just an old calibration I found and wanted to share.

    I am sure the maps I burnt to my ECM recently were stock calibration made for brazilian bikes. I ran them for a couple of days, made a good datalog session and tuned closed loop with ECMSpy. And yesterday I dataloged again while the bike was running the map that had been tuned that previous session.

  5. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooter View Post
    Thank you both for a in depth explanation of the basics. I'll be watching this thread and maybe even chime in if I actually have something valuable to say


    I'm currently custom tuning a new set up on my STT and went with the innovate WB with both O2 sensors after I welded a bung in a doner header. I never heard what AZ said about a bad narrow band output from the Innovate system before? I wonder if it was just an anomaly that someone passed around as a 'true fact about all of them'? That stuff happens a lot...

    I'll see if I can lay the NB output next to the WB reading and see if the voltage switches predictably. Should be super easy to see if they correlate.
    I tuned a 1967 Big Block Chevy with the system when I built a port fuel injection system for it and had no issues there, even though there was no stock ECM to trick with a NB O2 sensor.
    Cooter hello and welcome to the thread.
    Tell me something I dont know: to have 2 wideband running simultaneously did you have to buy 2 controllers? Or it is just a matter of buying two sensors and connecting both to the same controller and after to the ECM?

  6. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    There is something I´d like to share with you...take a look at this:

    o2.jpg

    In the stock eeprom, lean O2 voltage is set at 0.415v while rich is set at 0.562. They´re one the white fields.
    Lines below the stock calibration (gray) are from a tuned map I received from a "tuner" I got to know here in Brazil. I tried to understand why he does this but nothing came to my mind. The rich voltage I think I understand...the o2 sensor signal has to be higher than stock for the ECM to understand mixture is rich and apply a correction.
    Have you ever seen this kind of tuning on Buells? Does this make the ECM run richer than stoich!? It seems too easy to be true to me...
    I reas somewhere that the midpoint on the o2 sensor is something very relevant. The stock calibration puts the mid point at 0.4885v and the tuner lowered it to 0.47v, which is the average of rich and lean voltages. But the point on doing this I dont know yet.

  7. #37
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
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    Lowkey, outside of closed loop, the narrowband O2 is still reading, so it uses those values. We all agree narrow band sucks, I'm just saying it is possible to use one.

    Mcaff, you either need 2 controllers, or a controller that accepts 2 sensors.

    Copter, I haven't personally tried the innovate yet, just what I have heard, and I forget what the problem even is. I will try it, since I only have innovate wide bands.

    Ok, did some digging up of the innovate issue.

    "Some WB sensors cannot deliver enough current to maintain the output voltage when
    connected to a Buell ECM due to the low input impedance of the ECM. In simple terms,
    the ECM will measure the AFR erroneously. The Innovate LC-1 suffers from this issue,
    whereas the Tech-Edge is reported not to."

    http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...-please-advise

  8. #38
    Senior Member Cooter's Avatar
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    Mcaff: Thanks My controller accepts 2 sensors and the single gauge has 2 displays.

    AZ: I saw that thread a while ago, but didn't worry when Theoctopus replied:

    "Looks like it [Innovate] would work fine.

    The LC-1 [4.2 sensors] gets close enough for normal use, but it's up to you if you want to spend the extra money on a 4.9 controller."

    Now I'm curious which O2 sensors I have! The kit is pretty new, I wonder if they changed what O2 sensors they supply since that thread is from 2011.

  9. #39
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
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    Now I'm curious as well. I missed that part.

  10. #40
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
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    Dang, I have 4.2 sensors

    http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/support/49.php

    The new dual wideband from innovate the dlg-1 uses 4.9 sensors. If I didn't already have what I have, I would get that


    Last edited by AZmidget91; 02-18-2017 at 04:19 PM.

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