Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 10 of 123

Thread: DDFI-3 tuning with stock o2 sensor

  1. #1
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    100

    DDFI-3 tuning with stock o2 sensor



    Members don't see the above ad. Register now - it's free!
    Hi guys here we go again discussing ECM things.

    Iīve been researching the tuning procedures on Buells for more than a year maybe to feel safe enough to start tuning mine. By the way I ride a 2008 Ulysses completely stock except for a K&N air filter and the exhaust valve locked open.

    I managed to go for a great (dataloged) ride last weekend, about 1 hour riding with AFV locked and after that opened the log on ECMSpy and applied the average EGO corrections to both rear and front maps. The bike improved a lot and now when I run my EGO corrections stay pretty closer to 100 than before.

    Well this is the first part of the tuning process I think, as it tuned only the closed loop area of the map, plus learn and idle areas. The ECMSpy EGO maps are populated with values for the closed loop area only, so even if I wanted I couldnīt see what happened when bike entered open loop area.

    I always read that narrowband stock o2 sensor will not let us tune the open loop area. However, I have noticed that when I load my log file to MLV/VE Analyze it applies changes to map cels that are on open loop area also. Tunerpro is the same, when I dataloged with the acquisition plug-in from TunerPro it populated the History Table (LOAD_RPM_EGO) with values that looked like EGO corrections in open loop as well. I am aware that the ECM does not make EGO correction in open loop, so where does this data come from?

    Recently I read a thread here in this forum from 2014 in which our friend ReadyXB explained to another friend that if AFV was limited to 100%, all EGO corrections shown on TunerPro log could be applied to the whole map including open loop.

    I would like to understand this in full because sometimes it makes no sense to me. Should I consider these open-loop-area-EGOs and apply them to my map? Or it is better not to touch the stock open loop area and just have it tuned on the closed loop?

  2. #2
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,570
    From the ECMSpy tuning guide

    The EGO and AFV are corrections which are derived from the measurement of oxygen in the exhaust, using the O2 or Lambda sensor. The corrections are derived and applied to compensate for other uncertainties, such as changes in air pressure, engine to engine variations, air filter clogging, exhaust deterioration, engine deterioration and sensor calibration errors.

    The EGO is a correction derived and applied during Closed Loop and Closed Loop Learn control regimes.

    The AFV is a correction derived in the Closed Loop Learn (and Open Loop Learn) regime(s) and is applied in the Open Loop and Open Loop WOT control regimes.

  3. #3
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    100

    Smile

    Quote Originally Posted by AZmidget91 View Post
    From the ECMSpy tuning guide
    AZ hello.

    This part of the manual, which I have already read, just confirms what I have just written. That EGO works only during closed loop, so, how is it possible that the datalog contains EGO correction in open loop cels of the map? It does not answer my doubts, unfortunatelly.

  4. #4
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,570
    Another quote from the user guide. ECMSpy discards values outside of the closed loop area, where as other tuning programs not made specifically for Buell, can't assume the closed loop areas, therefore they can't discard them.

    Only runtime data retrieved in closed loop is taken into account for the averages, all other data will be discarded

  5. #5
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by AZmidget91 View Post
    Another quote from the user guide. ECMSpy discards values outside of the closed loop area, where as other tuning programs not made specifically for Buell, can't assume the closed loop areas, therefore they can't discard them.
    Great, that makes sense to me. ECMspy know what is closed loop whatīs open and it just ignores what is not CL.

    BUT, the question persists: if there is no EGO correction in open loop, from where do those values come from? It doesnt matter which software it is, if the ECM does not apply EGO to that specific cell because itīs open loop, how does it appear a EGO correction in the datalog? Thatīs the core of my doubts. Letīs say in numbers as an example. 175 load on the TPS and 6000rpm, this is definetely open-loop region. If I datalog on TunerPro for instance and in my ride I take the engine to 6000rpm with 175 load, after when I play the log it will show as the ECM put a correction in this point of the map. But how? If EGO is absent here, from where does TunerPro (or MLV) retrieve these values?

    Doubt is still in the air

  6. #6
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,570
    Once again, other software doesn't know if it is in open loop or not. And the ecm outputs the ego values at all times. The ecm is constantly taking in data, but only uses the data when in certain regions. And just as it takes data in from the sensors, it outputs it and if the software doesn't know to discard those readings it won't.

  7. #7
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by AZmidget91 View Post
    Once again, other software doesn't know if it is in open loop or not. And the ecm outputs the ego values at all times. The ecm is constantly taking in data, but only uses the data when in certain regions. And just as it takes data in from the sensors, it outputs it and if the software doesn't know to discard those readings it won't.
    Now you answered my question.

    EGO factor is always presente, it doesnīt matter what region of the map youīre running. The only thing is that when the ECM is out of closed loop it just ignores the EGO. Now I got it. I tought the EGO factor just stoped working, no data related to EGO was made while outside the closed loop.

    Thank you for this info and now it gets us back to the second part of the question. Is this EGO correction outside the closed loop reliable to be applied to the maps? I know EGO inside closed loop is reliable and I tuned my closed loop this way. But shall I take open-loop-EGO into account and apply it to the map? Is it reliable information?

  8. #8
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2014
    Posts
    1,570
    If that's all you have to go off of, then that will do. I suggest getting a PLX wideband and replace your stock narrow band with that. You can setup one of the outputs to simulate narrowband for the ecm, and the other output to your computer and ECMSpy Mono will log it simultaneously with your datalog and output a Lambda map.

  9. #9
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Posts
    100
    Quote Originally Posted by AZmidget91 View Post
    If that's all you have to go off of, then that will do. I suggest getting a PLX wideband and replace your stock narrow band with that. You can setup one of the outputs to simulate narrowband for the ecm, and the other output to your computer and ECMSpy Mono will log it simultaneously with your datalog and output a Lambda map.
    Sounds great! I've been doing some research on that matter. LC-2 from Innovate is around 150 usd and it is the replacement for LC-1 which I think is fully supported by EcmSpy also. I would like something that I could install there and use it forever, replacing the stock one. Maybe this is the way to got for a proper tune.

  10. #10
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Location
    Bullhead AZ
    Posts
    519
    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Now you answered my question.

    EGO factor is always presente, it doesnīt matter what region of the map youīre running. The only thing is that when the ECM is out of closed loop it just ignores the EGO. Now I got it. I tought the EGO factor just stoped working, no data related to EGO was made while outside the closed loop.

    Thank you for this info and now it gets us back to the second part of the question. Is this EGO correction outside the closed loop reliable to be applied to the maps? I know EGO inside closed loop is reliable and I tuned my closed loop this way. But shall I take open-loop-EGO into account and apply it to the map? Is it reliable information?
    Take this info with a grain of salt as I haven't tuned a Buell map but quite a few cars...

    You can't look at closed loop to open loop as a line in the sand so to speak... ECU references multiple factors to determine when the switch over takes place.

    Example 1: WOT at 3k should be referencing open loop feeding a set AFR above 14.7 (cell values uncorrected)
    Example 2: Steady state throttle a 3k should be referencing closed loop values shooting for the 14.7 AFR (constant correction to hit target value)

    Narrow band can only see a small window at the 14.7 AFR region anything else it will only see as lean or rich but has no idea what the actual values are. EGO values in open loop is probably saying you are rich right? You want to be so don't apply those values or you will be leaning it out. How rich you are is anyones guess without a wide band reading for both the front and rear cylinder separately. Even a dyno AFR reading is going to give you the combined reading of the AFR's mixed from the tailpipe.

Page 1 of 13 12311 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •