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Thread: DDFI-3 tuning with stock o2 sensor

  1. #51
    Senior Member d_adams's Avatar
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    This would be correct. I may try the DLG-1 if I can get someone at Innovate to answer the dang phone.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    You are exactly right in your thinking! That is what I'm saying, if you want to bump the fuel up a bit go to a mid point of .5v or higher, this will also effect the open loop fuel bumping it richer across the map as well.

    I still don't understand the thinking of what the tuner was trying to accomplish you referenced who changed the mid point to .47v
    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Found a good discussion around o2 voltage in here:

    http://badweatherbikers.com/buell/me...tml?1218319578
    The info in this link supports my above statement, seems people have data logged and proven that it does in fact change the values for fueling. I can't say one way or the other for sure as I have never done this or knew anything about it before yesterday. You should be able to verify this by data logging a ride on stock 02 target values with stock map then change target 02 value to .51 and do the same data logged ride. Compare the cell values between the two logs and the .51 log should be asking for more fuel compared to the other. If you do try this report back with your findings.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Posted by Gunter, one of the guys behind ECMSpy, in another forum:

    QUOTE
    From the Screamin Eagle manual "Closed Loop Bias adjusts the AFR control point from nominal. Note: Lower values (O2 voltage bias) will cause a leaner AFR. Higher values will cause a richer AFR."
    QUOTE

    That's pretty much plain bull****. Because it's impossible.

    NB-O2 sensors are not made to and do not - I repeat: DO NOT - signal a specific mixture except lean (= O2 partial pressure higher than stoich) or rich (= O2 partial pressure lower than stoich). They won't as they can't. Especially not if it comes to a rich mixture. A NB-O2 sensor will also never ever signal constantly 0.50 volts or some other midpoint voltage , unless it's broken. Period, over and out. We have thousands of miles of wideband logging showing clearly, that there's no relation between NB-O2 voltage and mixture except the qualitative determination of being above or below stoich. Run away from people telling you something else, as they prove only having no clue of what they are talking about.

    NB-O2 signal varies with O2 sensor temperature and O2 sensor age. A lean voltage of 0.12 volts (typ.) increases to about 0.20 volts, a rich voltage of 0.75 volts (typ.) drops to 0.65 volt. So it seems only reasonable to use an algorithm which is capable to cope with this situation. Every ECU I know of, evaluates only the voltage jump to trigger a EGO correction: if voltage is above rich threshold (~ 0.58 volts) fuel will be reduced, if voltage is below lean threshold (~ 0.42 volts), fuel will be increased. If voltage is between the rich and lean threshold, the signal will be evaluated as erraneous and be ignored. The impact of moving the "error range" on mixture is neglectable, because
    a) NB-O2 sensors do not signal a voltage near the thresholds (unless defective) and
    b) the integral factor of the PID regulator is chosen that way, that a voltage jump/mixture change is triggered much earlier.
    id073897
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    Not sure then... this user was also in the thread you linked above and no such statements were made there. Having had a hand in making ECMspy, you would hope he has insight as to why the values can be modified and what is accomplished by modifying them.
    Last edited by lowkey; 02-20-2017 at 02:18 AM.

  3. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    The info in this link supports my above statement, seems people have data logged and proven that it does in fact change the values for fueling. I can't say one way or the other for sure as I have never done this or knew anything about it before yesterday. You should be able to verify this by data logging a ride on stock 02 target values with stock map then change target 02 value to .51 and do the same data logged ride. Compare the cell values between the two logs and the .51 log should be asking for more fuel compared to the other. If you do try this report back with your findings.
    I can do that. How exactly should I tweak the O2 voltages on the ECM? Rich and lean upwards, making 0.51v be the new midpoint? Letīs say, increase rich voltage more than I increase lean voltage?

  4. #54
    One of the first discussion we had in the begining of this post was about the relevance of the EGO correction numbers in the open loop cells of the map. AZ also explained that EGO was still "there", it was just a matter of the ECM discarding it while in open loop.
    However, I have just realized that this info is perhaps wrong. At least that is what I just figured while playing back my last fridayīs datalog.
    Iīll try to explain you what I saw but itīs quite difficult to me as a non native speaker of english. Iīll do my best.

    Check below one screeshot of the datalog, a window that show EGO correction in black, TPS load in blue, RPM in red:
    ego.jpg

    As you can see, TPS is at 212 and climbing...one 1 second later and it goes all the way up to 255 (max). Take a look what happens to EGO from that point on. It "freezes" at 96.900, which was the last correction applied before the WOT condition. And what happens on the History Tables, which we use to apply corrections to the map? Check below:
    historytable.jpg

    The 96.900 EGO correction populates the History Table and make us believe the ECM was truly applying this correction at that time, which is not true. It just repeats the 96.900 value because it was the last example of EGO available, but in fact EGO is clearly unavailable at that time.

    This made me realize that tuning based on EGO is definetely worth only inside closed loop and absolutely worthless for the open loop. It does not give any idea on what is trully going on there.

    And just to give some more subsidies to our discussion regardind the o2 sensor, look what the stock narrow band showed during that exact same time, while EGO freezed at 96.900:

    lambda.jpg

    o2 voltage, in red, kept quite steady at around 0.7-0.8v while TPS was full at 255.

  5. #55
    Senior Member d_adams's Avatar
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    And the official answer from innovate is.... NO. No simulated narrow band output at all from the DLG-1 and also, none of their products are weather resistant. Guess I will be looking elsewhere.

  6. #56
    Senior Member d_adams's Avatar
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    Bought another Wego-3 dual wideband today with a remote waterproof display. Pics to follow in a few weeks or so.

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Hi guys here we go again discussing ECM things.

    Iīve been researching the tuning procedures on Buells for more than a year maybe to feel safe enough to start tuning mine. By the way I ride a 2008 Ulysses completely stock except for a K&N air filter and the exhaust valve locked open.

    I managed to go for a great (dataloged) ride last weekend, about 1 hour riding with AFV locked and after that opened the log on ECMSpy and applied the average EGO corrections to both rear and front maps. The bike improved a lot and now when I run my EGO corrections stay pretty closer to 100 than before.

    Well this is the first part of the tuning process I think, as it tuned only the closed loop area of the map, plus learn and idle areas. The ECMSpy EGO maps are populated with values for the closed loop area only, so even if I wanted I couldnīt see what happened when bike entered open loop area.

    I always read that narrowband stock o2 sensor will not let us tune the open loop area. However, I have noticed that when I load my log file to MLV/VE Analyze it applies changes to map cels that are on open loop area also. Tunerpro is the same, when I dataloged with the acquisition plug-in from TunerPro it populated the History Table (LOAD_RPM_EGO) with values that looked like EGO corrections in open loop as well. I am aware that the ECM does not make EGO correction in open loop, so where does this data come from?

    Recently I read a thread here in this forum from 2014 in which our friend ReadyXB explained to another friend that if AFV was limited to 100%, all EGO corrections shown on TunerPro log could be applied to the whole map including open loop.

    I would like to understand this in full because sometimes it makes no sense to me. Should I consider these open-loop-area-EGOs and apply them to my map? Or it is better not to touch the stock open loop area and just have it tuned on the closed loop?
    Hey not leaving you hanging here, I just have work to do so somewhat delayed. I got a bluetooth dongle from Cole so I can do some of this research myself as well now. I highlighted both programs from your first post of this thread, can you reply with what version of both programs you are running? Did you buy mega log viewer? If you found it can you provide a link? I have ECMspy (not mono version) and TunerproRT, I thought I had megalog but I can't find it.

    Also I found some very good info from this link http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...-tunning/page8 specifically the first post and page 8. I know you have read over the tuning guide but there is some really good info in there as well. http://www.ecmspy.com/tgv2/guide2.shtml#7.%20Methods The theory in the tuning guide states that if 100% fueling is met this is equal to 14.7:1 AFR's which is the target for the narrow band / closed loop. When open loop is triggered the value goes to 105% with an AFR value of 14.0:1 and WOT is a value of 110% which is 13.5:1 AFR. Also interesting is the narrow band voltage graph in the tuning guide is similar to the one I posted a few posts back except the value for stoich is an almost vertical line (also indicating there is no value adjustment to play with target AFR), you will see this in the linked tuning guide. Most of this info is in the appendix portion.

    Also Have a look at this info explaining how the ECU uses closed loop learn to calculate open loop fueling as well as open loop looking at AFV value and NOT the EGO value to make adjustments.

    5.1.3.2 Closed Loop Learn
    The Closed Loop Learn region is a subset of the Closed Loop region and is where the global correction, the AFV, is calculated to account for all other uncertainties not addressed, these may include; ambient pressure and sensor deterioration. The Closed Loop Learn region occurs at about 40 – 70mph with a steady throttle and is shown in Figure 6.
    The fuel is metered the same as in the Closed Loop region, except after 23 iterations of a difference between EGO and AFV, the AFV is reset to equal the EGO correction. Note that the AFV is only calculated in this region when the engine temperature is between [ Calibration Mode Maximum Engine Temperature ] and [ Calibration Mode Minimum Engine Temperature ], see section 18.
    Top of Section

    5.1.3.3 Open Loop
    Open Loop operation occurs outside the Closed Loop and Closed Loop Idle regions, see Figure 6.
    Open Loop fuel is metered as in Closed Loop, substituting the AFV instead of EGO correction and applying an open loop factor, [ Open Loop Default Correction ].
    The Open Loop region covers the TPS and RPM which are encountered during a transition from Closed Loop to Open Loop WOT and during deceleration. For the former, the AFR needs to provide a smooth transition to WOT and for the latter, the AFR needs to be very lean to ensure the engine returns to idle quickly, to increase the engine braking effect and to reduce the chance of popping and banging in the exhaust.

    5.1.3.5 Open Loop Learn Function
    A neat little ECM function is the Open Loop Learn.
    This uses the O2 sensor to detect rich or lean running conditions and operates in two ways:
    If, during a decel, the ECM detects a rich mixture, the AFV is temporarily reduced.
    If, at WOT, the ECM detects a lean mixture, the AFV is temporarily increased. This is shown clearly in Figure 7.
    For decel operation, the following parameters are applicable:
    [ Deceleration Learn Maximum RPM ]
    Upper RPM for Open Loop Learn (decel)
    [ Deceleration Learn Minimum RPM ]
    Lower RPM for Open Loop Learn (decel)
    [ Deceleration Learn Minimum Duration ]
    Minimum number of cam revs for validity
    [ Deceleration Learn Minimum Readings ]
    Number of decels where mixture measured as rich before AFV is reduced
    For WOT operation, if the mixture is lean, the AFV is increased. The following parameter is applicable:
    [ Open Loop Enrichment Delay ]
    Time at which mixture is lean before increasing AFV
    This function can be enabled/disabled through the [ System Configuration ] Byte, see Figure 8.


    Check corresponding figures 6 and 7 for great visual to go along with this data.

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