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View Full Version : stripped drain plug / bad dealer visit



frankrizzo
10-06-2010, 01:53 PM
Hello all

I had just hit 1000 miles on my '09 XB12XT and was getting ready to perform the 1k maintenance. On my way home the fuel pump fuse blew a few times (low fuel, bad traffic, hot weather..) and so I decided to bring it in to the dealer to hopefully have the fuel pump replaced.

I figured I'd perform the 1k maintenance first so as not to get any grief from the dealer and so as not to have to pay them $200 to perform it.

I am quite comfortable performing maintenance, but figured I'd be careful to do it by the book. Unfortunately when it came time to tightening up the drain plug, I never reached the 26-29 ft-lbs called for in the manual as I had stripped the aluminum threads.

wow, that felt pretty bad. Even more so when I looked around and found that this was a fairly well known issue. I did see at least that some folks were able to get this repaired under warranty and so I decided to take it in.

I brought my bike to the closest dealer: Wildfire Harley Davidson in Villa Park, IL. They noted my issues and said they'd call me with an update. I called them after a few days, a week, another week, and each time they either put me on hold forever, said they 'thought' it was waiting on parts, or told me that they'd call me back (and didn't).

I was pretty blown away by this as I take my cars in for service when needed and have never seen this lack of communication and care. I guess motorcycles are different?

After a month I finally got an answer: my bike was ready to pick up! Great! What had they done? They had done nothing to it because they couldn't replicate the fuel pump issue and I had stripped my drain threads which was not covered by the warranty.

WHAT? It's as if they hadn't heard anything I had told them. I asked if they had approached HD and they said no. I explained again about the poor torque spec in the manual and they said they'd take it up with HD.

Weeks go by.... when I call they say that they are working it out with HD and that they'll let me know.... No one ever calls, so I go in there to pick up my bike: They have done nothing, claim that HD doesn't believe me, and now want me to pay for their diagnostic time!! This after 7-8 weeks of waiting for nothing.

Thankfully the service manager was kind enough to waive the diagnostic charge as that would have been quite an insult, but he suggested that I have future maintenance done there. Maybe I should have had them add some chrome do-dads or something and they might have taken me more seriously.

So now I have a bike that I fear will strand me when it gets hot and of course I have to decide if I should fix the threads myself or try another dealer.

I'm looking for advice here. My understanding is that the HD dealer in Lisle, IL is pretty decent and I could take it there as i'd really like to see the fuel pump replaced as well as the swingarm. Do you think it's even worth trying another dealer? I sure don't want to waste any more time...

Otherwise, I can pick up the timesert kit and fix it myself. In order to install the timesert, is it okay to lay the bike on its side for a bit? I figure that would make it easier to tap square to the surface. I'd rather not take it apart and do not have a jack.

thanks for reading this overly-long post and thanks also for any suggestions

stalker
10-06-2010, 05:47 PM
There was an update to the manual to fix that problem. You are definately not the first to do this. I suggest you call HD customer support and deal with them.
If you are going to fix it your self be very careful not to get any metal chips in the oil tank.

delta one
10-06-2010, 06:30 PM
but he suggested that I have future maintenance done there.

wow after all that I would have a very hard time not laughing right in his face.
what an asshat

when I start to have issues like that with phone communication I go there phisicaly
its harder to blow off a guy that is standing in front of your desk

my vote is to call HD and see what can be done, see if a incedent number or any information was generated "when Wildfire called" (the quotes are my sarcastic indicators for "if they did at all" :D) very kindly express your discontent regarding your experience with Wildfire HD to to corporate HD, and request that action be taken, as well as any service they provide be handled at another dealer.

bottom line the fuel pump needs to be fixed, parts are hard to come by so you may be stuck in a wait but it needs to be handled under warranty
50/50 on the thread issue, I can see both sides here but HD ideally would take care of it for you due to the misprint causing damage, but they could just as easily state that you should have referenced the correction before proceeding (granted you and I know that you are not psychic and did not know there was a manual update and they obviously did not notify you of it before you started turning wrenches but sometimes companys are douche bags like that)

kalifornia
10-06-2010, 07:50 PM
screw the torque wrench next time. just snug it up. sorry to hear about that mess

stellio78
10-06-2010, 09:23 PM
Sorry to hear about your dramas and can someone tell me the correct torque so I don't do the same?

JJsXB9Sx
10-06-2010, 10:07 PM
screw the torque wrench next time. just snug it up. sorry to hear about that mess

[up] Plug seems tighter than my cars ever have so I figure it shouldn't just rattle itself loose.

frankrizzo
10-07-2010, 06:36 AM
Thanks, I will give HD a call.

frankrizzo
10-08-2010, 01:43 PM
Here's an update: I called HD customer service who verified that Wildfire HD did not contact them at all regarding my bike. Why am I not surprised?

The rep told me that the torque spec for the drain plug is in fact 26-29 ft-lbs and that since I did the work myself I am responsible. He was not aware of any update to that spec or addendum.

He did give me a reference number regarding the fuel pump and said that they could probably do something about that. I can give that reference number to any deal I wish to bring it to in order to follow up with HD.

frankrizzo
10-08-2010, 01:54 PM
It's pretty clear I'll be fixing the drain plug myself.

Any thoughts on whether it's okay to rest the bike on it's side long enough to install the time-sert?

The buell only rests on the hand guard and the tires, so no worries on damage, just wondering if the bike itself will mind being on its side for a while?

thanks

TooFst
10-08-2010, 01:57 PM
Any auto parts store shoul have self tapping drain plugs. I'm an automobile service writer. Anyway I use self tapping plugs all the time (when a customer dosent want to pay for a new pan) and they work great. Bring in your old plug and get 1 a hair bigger. Screw it in and out a few ties to get rid of all the crap and you'll b good to go.



Good luck with the pump too, sorry your bikes been down so long.

brisbon
10-08-2010, 03:01 PM
I'm the owner of a heavy duty diesel garage, take my 30 years experiance and fix it right. a couple of hundred dollars for a swing arm is cheeper than a motor. And self tapping oil plugs are for jiffyscrewandstrip lubes only youd be just as well off using a cork from a wine bottle.

maybe www.buellsterparts.com has a decent used swing arm for you at a good price.

and next time when aluminum is involved let your wrist tell you when shes snug. 26-29 ftlbs is way too much for that plug and swingarm, 12-14 sounds more like it.

Ebeo1
10-08-2010, 04:20 PM
maybe www.buellsterparts.com has a decent used swing arm for you at a good price

http://www.buellsterparts.com/product.sc?productId=373&categoryId=6
http://www.buellsterparts.com/product.sc?productId=205&categoryId=6

There is a couple more to choose from looks like you pay more for less damage.

delta one
10-08-2010, 04:28 PM
anybody have and updated spec they can scan for frank?

or some sort of reference number?

RT Performance
10-08-2010, 11:27 PM
I have been using helli coil plug(spark plug to be more specific) insert in car pans with really good results.
there should not be an issue with laying the bike over be sure it is low on fuel and not to scratch the frame forks and swing arm. i would be laying moving blankets if it was me.

torque on a steel plug in a almuin swing arm should be 15 ft/lbs

redrider
10-09-2010, 08:30 AM
I have taken my Buell to Zylstra HD in St.Charles Il. i did not buy it there but i was very happy with the outcome of the 2 warr. repaires they did for me.Sorry to here about the **** Wildfire pulled on you!

kalifornia
10-09-2010, 03:01 PM
triple check the opening looking for shards of aluminum (their in there)

freak2180
10-10-2010, 08:28 AM
Found this on Ebay...Cheap Buy it now for $30

Item number: 130440084343

frankrizzo
10-10-2010, 09:53 AM
That swingarm on ebay is amazingly cheap! for that price I'd take a chance on whether it's straight or not.

I'm going to put in a time-sert today and see how well that works. If not, I'll be picking up a swingarm and replacing it.

Thanks again for all the help and suggestions. This is a great forum.

freak2180
10-10-2010, 11:08 AM
Ive looked through several ads by this seller and it seems the parts came from a bike that looks like it rearended somthing, because most of the parts for the front of the bike seem to be damaged.......If I had the extra cash I would scoop up that bad boy for myself.

frankrizzo
10-10-2010, 03:16 PM
Got the time-sert installed today. As far as I'm concerned, it's better than new. Thanks again for the advice.

The time-sert kit still has 4 more inserts. I'd be happy to lend it out to anyone in need.

frankrizzo
10-10-2010, 05:29 PM
I ended up using a ratchet and 12 point socket to install this, but it worked out pretty good: nice steel threads.

Used some grease on the end of the tools to catch as many chips as possible. Then flushed the oil through a few times and finally put in new oil

swingarm drain after thread repair (http://www.flickr.com/photos/14972340@N02/5069303501/)

RT Performance
10-10-2010, 08:40 PM
Nice work looks great :)

brisbon
10-10-2010, 11:39 PM
if you simply tighten with the proper single allen head wrench you cant physically overtighten it unless you absolutely try to.

that bushing style timesert is pretty cool ill admit sure beats a helicoil.

sprinklerdude
10-11-2010, 07:49 AM
I put a heli coil with an o-ring and torque it about 10ft-lbs no leak works great to change oil

isogear
12-03-2010, 04:45 AM
I stripped mine too. ASB also says the torque spec is wrong by about 2X. I've got 26K on it in 13 months.
But I was also deep into pondering how hot my oil gets - I ride year round, including tours in the very hot Western states, blasting at 80-90 mph for hours in 90+ temps...
So I bought and installed an Equus temp sensor, which fits into a new slightly larger drain plug (all in the kit....about $30 including nice backlit analog gauge), so I tapped it out, drained it a couple times, and it's better than new. It uses a larger O-ring - 1/2 X 1/16. And I only do a 'snug-snug' tighten. No leaks. And now I have oil temp ( at least in sump area of swing arm) on the cockpit. Equus makes good gauges - I've personally visited and used them to manufacture other gauges for me and my company.
And I've got the fuel pump issue too. Only when it's really hot out and the bike is fully hot. It makes a terrible noise when starting up, but only then. When I told dealer about it, they admitted that there is a 'tech-bulletin' acknowledgeing it, but they say it is still OK, even when making the terrible noise at the point when you turn the bike to the run position before starting. Mine has stopped doing it as of September ( last hot rides) so I'll wait till probably May to see how it manifests itself again.

Al, owner of American Sport Bike ASB, will confirm the drain pulg issue with you, and recoomends the time-sert solution too. I've looked at the design and it is a good way to go.

RuiP
07-13-2011, 07:35 PM
just stripped mine performing an oil change. **** :(

PwrHse
07-13-2011, 10:49 PM
The time-sert works well . The first oil change I did the threads came out upon removing drain . Must have been over-torqued from dealer . 09 xb

okey
07-14-2011, 01:59 AM
Mine also stripped. I noticed a thread pull removing the plug and i was so paranoid i read the factory workshop manual ( $100.00) cost. I did not get anywhere near the 26 ft pound like suggested in all my literature and watched silver shards pull out. I searched a lot and thanks to frankrizzo's advice i ordered the timesert 0122a kit and with the help of a mate installed the insert. In Australia i could only fine one supplier who wanted $280.00 for the kit but i had one shipped from an ebay vendor for $125.00 delivered within a week. [up]

RuiP
07-14-2011, 06:45 AM
So about $125 to fix it? What a pain in the arse.

Zeroflat24
07-14-2011, 07:52 AM
I wouldn't listen to mr 30 year diesel mechanic. I have been wrenching my whole life. You can repair that swing arm with a simple tap and die set without breaking down and spending hundreds of dollars on a new swing arm. And there is absolutely nothing wrong with a self taping drain plug or a heli coil. I've seen heli coils in car/ truck drain pans last 50k miles time and time again.

crxtasy169
07-14-2011, 08:33 PM
If you followed the book on torque specs and it stripped they have to replace it. That is a manufactures torque spec they set for techs or anyone with some common sense to do their own work. If you followed the manufactures procedure word for word then they have no choice but to replace it call the better buisness beauro and file a complaint and then call a lawyer. Nail them to the wall I work at a dealership and I'm tired of seeing piss ass Harley dealerships pulling this crap and getting away with it. Don't stand for it!!!

RuiP
07-15-2011, 06:44 AM
Yes I would love to go to the dealership with it, but I'm not so sure they would handle it since I stripped it myself.

Ebeo1
07-16-2011, 12:10 PM
I'm in this club too. [sad]

RuiP
07-17-2011, 06:34 AM
I used a ton of thread sealant and so far it seems go be holding up.

frankrizzo
07-17-2011, 07:03 PM
FYI I no longer have the time-sert kit to lend out or sell. The first guy I leant it to (Francis Gonzalez, 12redline on the forum) disappeared without a trace. Amusingly, I picked up the shipping to help a fellow bueller out and only asked that he send it back when he was done. No good deed goes unpunished...

In regards to getting HD to cover it under warranty: I'm sure google has shown you some people getting a new swingarm, but I actually called HD customer service and was flat-out told that the torque specs are correct and that if I did it myself then the warranty does not apply. I reminded the rep that I can service my own bike if I choose and that the warranty should still apply. He politely disagreed. I figured the $100 for the kit would be money well spent and I could loan it out to others with the same problem.

RuiP
07-18-2011, 07:55 AM
After exchanging messages with frankrizzo, I sent Francis (12redline) a message a few days back and didn't receive a reply so I decided to try the sealant. If it didn't hold up, I was prepared to go the time-sert route. About 100 bucks on ebay.

So far so good. [up]

TheNewGuy
03-09-2013, 11:08 PM
Wow... I stripped mine today... Danm 26-29 ft-lbs spec. I knew it didn't feel right. By the way, someone should mention that the DIY video on this site for oil changes suggests the 26-29 ft-lbs torque. That should be corrected.

But this thread puts my mind at ease. I thought this was gonna be a major headache and it turns out there's a bunch of great solutions. You guys are awesome. This may be the greatest community I've ever been a part of. Over the last few days I've had every problem I've run into solved in these conversations.

Anyhow, I'm gonna probably go the time-sert route. Its pretty much a permanent solution. By the way, what kind of oil do you guys use and how often should it be changed? I use full synthetic 15W50. What do you guys suggest?

TheNewGuy
03-09-2013, 11:18 PM
FYI I no longer have the time-sert kit to lend out or sell. The first guy I leant it to (Francis Gonzalez, 12redline on the forum) disappeared without a trace. Amusingly, I picked up the shipping to help a fellow bueller out and only asked that he send it back when he was done. No good deed goes unpunished...

In regards to getting HD to cover it under warranty: I'm sure google has shown you some people getting a new swingarm, but I actually called HD customer service and was flat-out told that the torque specs are correct and that if I did it myself then the warranty does not apply. I reminded the rep that I can service my own bike if I choose and that the warranty should still apply. He politely disagreed. I figured the $100 for the kit would be money well spent and I could loan it out to others with the same problem.

That sucks. I can't believe that dude did something like that to you over a 100 dollar kit that you went out of your way to lend him. I'm sorry to hear that there's douches like that on these boards. Anyhow, just thought I'd voice my opinion. I still think most of the people around this forum are more helpful than I could of ever asked for. It's made owning a Buell so much more fun, and it's taken almost all the pressure away from owning my first bike. I love doing my own maintenance and modifications but was super intimidated by motorcycles, so for me this site is the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Hooker
03-10-2013, 10:38 AM
I bought my 2003 XB9S from Fox River HD in St. Charles, IL, and never looked back. They have great mechanics AND salesmen who actually aren't exactly anti-buell like most HD guys are. Before i bought my bike (14k miles when i bought it) they did a $400 "road service" preventative maintenance check on it where they changed all the fluids, replaced brake pads, bled the brakes, adjusted the clutch, changed the plugs, changed the air filter, replaced tires (if needed) and anything else. This $400 is usually automatically added onto their bikes at the time of the sale because they do it to all of their bikes before they even put them up for sale (so everything is top notch for test rides) and after i explained to them that i was a medically discharged vet, full time student, worked full time, and i was going back into service to our country (this time as a police officer), they slashed the 400$ and gave me the road service for free. My salesman's name was "Jimmy Mauro." He even got me a new set of keys for free (in case they were worn out, which they weren't). If you need a reliable place to get work done, i highly recommend going to these guys if they are within reason. I live right outside aurora, illinois, (big rock) and this place is probably a half hour from me, but it's well worth the travel.

tacklejunkie
05-14-2014, 05:04 PM
I will have to order/try the time-sert kit here shortly.
I listened to the manual and stripped my drain plug last night. Last time I listen to a manual.
I've done this before on a 2003 GSXR 600 oil pan, $100 to replace, figured I'd learned my lesson and to always follow the manual torque specs. Now I follow the manual torque specs on the XB12R and strip my swingarm.
Can't win I guess. =P

Will let you guys know if the time-sert kit works for me! I figure I'll go this route because the threads will be stronger than new when done. I see used swingarms on ebay at +-$100 if this doesn't work.

That really sucks that the manual has this misprint. I knew that sounded way too high but followed the manual anyway. [down]

tacklejunkie
05-15-2014, 08:58 AM
I managed to safety wire my drain bolt shut until I can get the kit ready for the next oil change.
This might be a good way to install your drain plug at 10ft lbs and not worry about it backing out. Wouldn't need any thread glue either. The bolt head was easier to drill on this bike than on my Suzuki GSXR's with the lightened aircraft grade hardware. Here was the bolt when I Went to pull it out to drill it for safety wiring..
You can see the threads all came out with the bolt. I got several large pieces like this.
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/tacklejunkie/bass%202-4-09/IMG_0125_zpsc62e3f26.jpg

Here it is after. Torqued to 10ft lbs and safety wired in place... until I can fix the threads with the time-sert.
Now I think I'm gonna go through and safety wire the whole bike..
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/tacklejunkie/bass%202-4-09/IMG_0127_zps5165286e.jpg

sewerman
05-15-2014, 04:49 PM
Is it a good idea to safety wire to the oil line like that? It would make me nervous about vibration, stainless wire and aluminum tubing.

jetlee
05-15-2014, 05:15 PM
Is it a good idea to safety wire to the oil line like that?Â* It would make me nervous about vibration, stainless wire and aluminum tubing.
Very good point, the aluminum will corrode when that gets wet.

go cytocis
05-15-2014, 05:43 PM
Now I think I'm gonna go through and safety wire the whole bike..I like safety wire for critical fasteners myself, but just beware that if you plan on selling the bike (and getting top dollar for it) many buyers get nervous when they see safety wire because its normally an indication that the bike's done track time.

thrstrmech
05-16-2014, 04:34 AM
the aluminum will corrode when that gets wet

not, I'm an aircraft mechanic and that is done more frequently than you think. Also feed the safety wire through plastic tubing where it will come into contact against the aluminum line and you'll be fine. You can also do the same where the safety wire may rub against any surface. 1/8" clear tubing / hose works just fine.