Need exhaust opinions

[Xcler8n]

I have a '04 XB12S with a race ecm and buell race exhaust. I'm looking to switch out my exhaust to something new. A mechanic at the local harley dealer has a Force exhaust on his twelve and it sounds utterly amazing. But after calling and talking to the guys at useforce.com I'm having second thoughts. They do not recommend this exhaust for the twelve because it is too small/restrictive. So I guess the opinion I'm looking for is should I get the force anyways? The other exhausts I am considering are the Micron Serpent and the TiForce system. Though the TiForce is probably out of my price range. Any opinion and information you guys can provide would be much appreciated.

[BuellPartsGuy]

Micron is an excellent performing/sounding pipe

[dans03firebolt]

I have heard nothing but great things about the Remus system as well. I have the Buell Race pipe too and I am getting sick of it I want something louder and better performing. I may switch sometime soon myself.

[TMC]

Hey if you dont get that force pipe let me know I would like it very much thank you. Sorry forgot to ask is the mechanic selling that pipe or not?

[Xcler8n]

No he's not selling it. He loves it and I thought it sounded amazing that is why I started looking into them.

[TMC]

I know that's why I'm trying so hard to find one. force told me they dont make them anymore so that's why its been a battle trying to find one

[LeFox]

i would recommend the micron if performance and sound is what you want.

if you want looks & sound, tiforce is the way to go.

[mikedsilva]

i have gotten hold of a 2005 XB12Ss. It has a Full Micron system on it and sounds awesome. I'm not used to Harley engines and this thing shakes like a bitch. I've had Ducatis before and love the feel of the 90degree twin, but this Buell is something else.
It wont hold a constant throttle for riding through the suburbs; is that normal? under acceleration it feels fine. The vibes dont really smooth out till around 3000rpm...
I love the sound of the Micron system. Not sure if the "flat" bends in the front header are intended...

[Fock347]

i found a cool web site http://www.americansportbike.com/ there is an exhaust shoot out , has pics, sound files, dyno charts, comparisons between other exhaust systems for buell xbs. i found it pretty usefull.

[scobbie001]

I love the sound of the Micron system. Not sure if the "flat" bends in the front header are intended...

They are intended...I'm not sure of all the correct terms, but in the end it is to make the header pipes equal length. LeFox has one, he can tell you all about it.

[sinpieces]

Xcler8n (and all the rest),

first of all, you got an 04, so you got the amber(goldish rims), look at the Tiforce and realize the given match;)
The Tiforce is way better quality than the Micron, no discussion. The Micron give you great performance for the money, the Tiforce is similar.
The Tiforce shows a report, 10bhp (brake horse powers) with original ecm and air filter. It is an optically perfect match to the gold rims. Tiforce has gold anodised rear/front parts and a titanium shell (muffler) and big equal sized headers that looks brute. You know you use Tiforce without the chin spoiler!?
That is the way to go
[up]

The Micron sound is raw, loud and tinner.
Micron is not street legal due to it's noise.
So it might give problem sooner or later!
Tiforce won't do this!
It sounds less in db than Buell race pipe, but as mentioned.. Tiforce roars deeper in tone (like thunder) and has more bass grunt.. hehe like a big mean engine.
It works great with race ecm (better than the original header and buell race muffler). Do use atleast and open airbox configuration and race ecm. Later on i suggest a Remus powerizer (or TFi doberdeck techlusion box) and origial ecm. The Tiforce is a free flowing exhaust system and it's principle is close to Remus own race pipes (they do not do complete exhaust systems. It's expensive to do headers... especially good working) so the match for the Remus powerizer is super.
The Remus powerizer is also self-adjusting (microprocessor driven), so it's feature proof and you don't ever need to have it adjusted at a dyno (saves money:) to get it to perform at it's best.
I am biased and am honest about that.

I suggest, with out doing any engine surgery, but let the bike (engine) work at it's best:

* Tiforce
* F.A.S.T. kit + crank case breathers
(( or K&N filter in open airbox configuration))
* Tank Dummy with extra airintakes
* Remus powerizer (or TFI)
* Original ecm
(cut out the white wire at the ecm connector [pin:8]
* Primary gearing kit (more torque + acceleration)

Since you got air intakes in the side of the frame (03-05), the new frames does not, you still have the chance to force more air into the engine with the help of a new tank cover dummy. A dummy with airintakes (often at the side's).
That is great, use such a dummy and an open airbox + (or better F.A.S.T. kit) the Remus and the Tiforce. The engine will get much more air, the powerizer adapts and corrects the mixture of air/fuel.

When you cut the white wire and use Remus powerizer, the ecm doesn't block the fuel in the lower rpms as much as it does with the wire connected.
You do need an exhaust valve emulator also (to stop the warning light in the display)

Tiforce:
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/83_20080509042441_L.jpg
Tiforce rear:
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/83_20080509043206_L.jpg
Lateral airintake dummy:
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/83_20080405071108_L.jpg
Remus powerizer + white wire [pin:8] cut out
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/83_20080509113250_L.jpg

[LeFox]

sin, don't entirely agree with your statement here.


The Tiforce is way better quality than the Micron, no discussion.
the welds are state of the art, there a no rivets than can break or tear into your exhaust, no springs that can come loose and it's maintenance free.
no micron has ever been recalled or returned.


The Micron sound is raw, loud and tinner.
Micron is not street legal due to it's noise.
it's bass that makes your db high, not sharp sounds. the micron is low in sound and gets sharper, like a screaming sound above 4500rpm.
it's a full race exhaust with no option to install db-killers, which is why it's not streetlegal


The Tiforce shows a report, 10bhp (brake horse powers) with original ecm and air filter.
ti-force own website give a dyno with a 2.2hp gain

http://www.tiforce.com/2003/models_page/graph/graph_BUELL-XB12R.gif

and since the diameter of the headers are bigger than the original, i don't recommend using them with standard ecm. the micron neither for that matter.

but...they are both nice systems and like i said...

sound & performance => micron
sound & looks => ti-force

if you want it all and can get your hands on a deepthunder exhaust...do it!

http://www.hillbilly-motors.com/assets/images/GFCartaExhaust.jpg

[Xcler8n]

Okay so deep thunder is the best of the best then? Since Hillbilly motors doesn't seem to sell anything anymore where do I even start to look?

LeFox --- I came across a pic of your bike on devilstars (I think) and was wondering if your micron system is jet coated? Do you have the new RH air scoop now that it fits as well?

Sinpieces--I found a link I believe you posted in anther post (can't find it now) for the FAST system. There were three choices and of course none of them were in english. Need some help with this.

I know lots of questions and I'm sure I'll have more once I get to work and find all your other posts that I can't seem to findright now.

[LeFox]

Since Hillbilly motors doesn't seem to sell anything anymore where do I even start to look?
let me know when you do...i was too late to get them from hillbilly and am still looking where i could get my hands on one ;)
can't fit the front spoiler anymore, though.


LeFox --- I came across a pic of your bike on devilstars (I think) and was wondering if your micron system is jet coated? Do you have the new RH air scoop now that it fits as well?
yea, it's ceramicly coated ;)
and yea i got a scoop for it, but with the ecm mapping and the nice black header i'm not using one personally.

[Xcler8n]

LeFox--does your website have an english version? I also noticed a lot of pegasus costomizing on the web site. If you are also associated with their website do you know when that will be up and functional?

[LeFox]

LeFox--does your website have an english version? I also noticed a lot of pegasus costomizing on the web site. If you are also associated with their website do you know when that will be up and functional?
nope, i translated the scoop part, but the rest is dutch.
pegasus website...dunno, i'll ask him but i don't think it's defined yet.

[sinpieces]

Hi guys,

i know a guy who used the Deep Thunder and he disliked it very much (i talked to him in person). Due to it beeing too low, ground clearance is worthless... and it feel apart in the joints (he did say so and he took it off). Tiforce also have joints, but mine and a guy i know has not have any problems with ours. Yes Lefox, the 10 bhp info i sent was wrong for original ecm and air filter, sorry! It was not with original ecm and just original air filter, it was another set up i was looking at.
Clumsy!
Though, to get same results and to say that for example that one set up produces more gains, also requires that they are tested with same bike under same circumstances. I don't doubt you can get different people measuring same set up and bike but with different results at different facilities (and/or maybe same facility).
I know it has happened.
The Tiforce and Micron has not been officialy face to face tested, so to say that one produces more gains over the other can be difficult. But if anyone has a report, we can check it.
I would surely add the Italian Termigoni if we talk complete systems. I think you can get one of these with legal noise levels also.
Regarding the quality, the Micron is nice for the money no question. But they do make more noise and that is a problem when going to the every second year inspection (vehicle test).
Another aspect that might be relevant to some, is weight. Regarding high noise levels, you are likelyto suffer same problem with the Deep thunder.
You might have to mount it back to original (and that is very likely... how fun is that!?).. I have heard the Micron straight off to my Tiforce. So i base all that mentioning about sound from hearing both at the same time. You can ask all that sell the Micron and the Tiforce for exact evaluation, i know twinmotorcycles have both, mail them. Do not ask a reseller that only carry one of them, you know what they will say. I won't bad talk none of them, it is not what i mean to do, i just personally think the Micron is too loud and screamy (not funny in the long run). I do not say all think like me. The Deep thunder seems most difficult to have though. Where do you find spare parts since Hillbilly seems to be nomore? They do not sell aftermarket gear online and as i have heard they are not avaible as resellers. With the Deep Thunder you will probaly have problems hitting speed bumps all the time:(, it was just made for track (i was told).
The Deep thunder muffler live a dangerous life (ground clearance) + it's noise levels are high.
You know, when you have the bike a few years i guess it's not funny knowing one have to change exhaust system for the inspection date (that is also why i bought Tiforce).
Lefox, i did not write, the use original ecm only.
Race ecm or original ecm and Tfi or Remus powerizer.
But maybe you ment when i (faulty) wrote about the 10bhp test with original ecm and air filter?
Well well, we all understand.. and that is the idea behind it all!
"The intension" with Remus powerizer is that it will work (substitute) as a remapped ecm. As it self adjust for your set up (Tfi is not self adjusting). The nicest part is that it allows your upgrades without the need of remapping again and again for your changes (if you like to tweak) in air box configuration and/or getting a new tank dummy forcing more air etc etc.
A remapped ecm for the specific set up is probably the best... i do not doubt that.
Oh, the Fat-cat... heck, call them and see to it that they send correct stuff. I did and that was no problem with english.
Try the FAST and the crankcase breathers... the FAST kit is better than the open airbox i had that before and FAST is better.
I hope it all turns out good now:)

[sinpieces]

Xcler8n,

the art nr you asked me for.

FAST kit/ Art.Nr.:01112.
Crankcase breather kit (for fast kit)/ Art.Nr.:01115.
Remus powerizer/ Art.Nr.:01118.

Tiforce is 5.54Kg, Micron 6.8Kg.
You don't use chin spoiler with Tiforce but you can do it with Micron.

[LeFox]

making mistakes in human...i'm not on your back for this, sin, just had a few remarks ;)

[Xcler8n]

Any opinions or experience with something like this set-up?

http://www.trojan-horse.co.uk/prods/84.html
http://www.trojan-horse.co.uk/prods/78.html
http://www.trojan-horse.co.uk/prods/images/78_2.jpg

http://www.trojan-horse.co.uk/prods/images/84_2.jpg

[LeFox]

yea, that's free spirits' version of the hp areo verso corse.

you'll need another belly spoiler with that one, make a whole in the oem one.

i haven't heard it yet, though.

the hp aero headers, i wouldn't advise you to put them on the xb9, since you will loose bottom end power.

[sinpieces]

I looked at this option once, but it's very pricey!
I was told the 48mm diamters headers was not to use with original cylinders (45mm's for original), only bigbore like 1430/1470cc. But those headers you look at, i don't know if they are the 45 or 48 mm version (they look the same)?
As Foxy told you, you have to rework your chin spoiler or buy the aftermarket piece in glassfibre to fit the Free Spirit choice. If you would go for a version with out chin spoiler, that looks very cool, clean and nice. Just beware of speed bumps so that you don't smash your end pipe. I made a nasty dent at mine, couldn't stand seeing that dent, so i bought a new pipe and that was not cheap:(
You should know that the Free Spirit version you have posted pics of here are made for race, so the db is probably high!
It's also a more heavy combination than the Tiforce.
Only the pipe weights 4.1Kg's and than you have the header and the chin spoiler to add.
Tiforce pipe (muffler) is extremely lightweight.
I don't know, if sound levels matters to you?
If you look at Termignoni (complete exhaust system with db killer) or Tiforce i believe you can get both of these within levels you can use them without problems.. Micron is the most economical choice but again, it sing louder.

[LeFox]

Free Spirit version you have posted pics of here are made for race
sin,...:p

the free spirits version is a roadlegal version with db-killer. it's the original hp aero verso corse that is the full race on which this one is based on, design-wise.
the free spirits one is E marked and sings at about 98db ;)

[mrdozer2you]

I dont get it? Why do they have such laws about noise in Europe? It seems to me that the "fun police" are all over in Europe, taking away everyone's fun. [down]:p

At least in the States we dont have our rights taken from us. We GIVE THEM AWAY, one politically correct piece at at time [mad]

[Xcler8n]

LeFox I have a 12 so do I need to worry about the low end power? And so far Ohio doesn't have any yearly/biyearly testing as California and I'm guessing Europe does. I'm looking for loader than the Race Kit but it needs to be fuctional for daily use. 50 miles round trip to and from work.

Also, if I ordered those pipes it would be the 45mm version. They have 3 or 4 choices for mufflers but I liked the look of the front exit. Does anyone know if there is much difference. The descriptions are fairly vague. Still leaning towards the Micron due to price but still weighing my options. The couple of times I've found the Termignoni it hasn't been a complete set. the individual orders would put it around $1600 for the full set. Is that about right?

[LeFox]

we don't have anual or bi-anual testing either...but the north of europe is pretty strickt when it comes to the environment (not a bad thing though)

well, i don't know about this one, but the original verso corse was a good, pretty loud, low-base sound which, as rider, you could hear better because of the front exit (rider behind exhaust exit).
since this one is roadlegal, the sound will be less loud, though...

the 12 will be able to handle the 45 headers, although you will lose a bit of low-end, but it would be minimum. mid range & top-end will increase, but remapping of the ecm is required though...a race ecm will not be sufficient.

[sinpieces]

As long as you have the original 1203cc or even the 1250cc cylinders you will do very good with Tfi or Remus powerizer. As mentioned so many times before. The idea behind Remus is that it will "substitute" for a remapped ecm. You use original ecm + Remus. The Remus powerizer adapts to the modified air intake and the exhaust. To make things slightly better, cut out the white wire in the ecm connector (pin:8). This wire is only to block fuel in low rpms. With Tfi you could need a dyno to set it optimal, the Remus powerizer has a fast microprocessor and self adjust.
Also a waring light will illuminate in the dashboard when you disable the original exhaust, you can buy a "exhaust valve emulator" (not expensive) and the warning light will not illuminate any more.
If you want to add bottom end power, buy a primary gearing kit for the XB 12. Bike will lose 10% top speed, but accelaretion and mostly torque will increase. The torque increase you will notice and it's darn fun. I was told that the original ecm is better (than race ecm) to use with Remus or Tfi. This was obviously proved by measurement. And here the original ecm proved to give slightly more power, in combination with Remus and Tfi, than the race ecm and Remus or Tfi. But it's up to you what you believe in. You can use race ecm and Tfi or Remus, no problem. I have no dyno test to prove anything of this!
A remapped ecm is probably best, i do not doubt it, since it's optimized! But again, the Remus adapts to all your possible feature changes and is not bound by the mapping of a specific air intake and/or exhaust etc etc. Good luck... [up]

[architech]

What about drummer? I am considering this as viable option myself. How does the race pipe compare to the standard muffler in terms of sound?

[xb12sslong]

hey sin, thanks for all the info on your bike. a quick question though, i am about to buy the Ti force exhaust and the remus powerizer, my bike is an 06 xb12ss. are there any differences in your 04 and my 06 that i need to be aware of?

[henri66]

And what about this whole combination (exhaust, intake, powerizer)? Will it work with the latest 2009 ECM version?
I would realy be interested.

Thanks for info.

[XBear9S]

Silly me.
All happy w/my Jardine Titanium Slip-on...

Robtk! a.k.a. "Special K"

"Stupid is as gearless Bueller does"

--Forrest "Lightning" Gump

[LeFox]

And what about this whole combination (exhaust, intake, powerizer)? Will it work with the latest 2009 ECM version?
I would realy be interested.

Thanks for info.
there's a new powerizer out for the '09, so it should work ;)

[maybebuell]

twenty five dyno runs to gain 2 hp....and theres a reason they show no torque...want to take a guess why......put a side by side dyno run with stock header and see higher tq and hp in lower rpm... where you ride on the street .... stock header is a faster quicker more sharp ride...the extra few hp on the top end kills your low to mid pulling power

[windyrog]

I've got the XB12X Ulysses with the Micron Serpent full system. It is worth having for the hydroformed pipes alone. It is totally stainless steel and looks the "dogs doo dah's". Yep.... go for the Remus Poweriser and the Emulator too.
You will end up with a bike that sounds like the cross between an old Sherman tank and a Rolls Royce Merlin Engined P51!!!! Oh.... the Hyperpro triple rate spring kit would not go amiss either.
It will have the grunt of a Pitbull Terrier ....and have the back up from two very well respected European companies. ( Now Dollar friendly).
I know that most of you postees are suspicious of stuff from the other side of the pond, so you really should get out more!!!!!
Love the bike.... if only because it's not another Japanese sewing machine.
It's got balls and following my Ducati 996 was always going to be a hard act to follow. Very different..... just as enjoyable. [cool]

[CoxyXB9S]

I see the pictures of that TiForce....If you are that blued on the pipes I would think that bike is running really lean.

[XBen12]

there's a new powerizer out for the '09, so it should work

would the white wire mod be the same on late o8 & 09 models?

and would the new powerizer be sufficient for open air box and exhaust mod or just exhaust?
looking into a 09 in the new year, do you think there will be software available to our market for the ecm remap in the near future?

cheers

[Deon B]

Hi Guys,

What do you think of this setup? We had to manufacture the box due to imports and the ZAR at its worst level for years.

We did the R+D and built the box from scratch, and believe me it sounds great and the performance of the bike is easily 10% + better.

We will give it a dyno run next year and post the results
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/1451_20081208133258_L.jpg
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/1451_20081208132851_L.jpg

[Furball]

hmmm, you guys have really sparked my interest with this powerizer thing, since i have neither the time nor the experience to deal with tuning a race ecm.

i have a stock 09 12R. I have ceramic coated headers that i bought from ASB sitting in my garage waiting for me to drop off my bike at the dealer to get them put on, since i dont trust myself to rotate the motor.

I will have a nice semi-used (1,000 miles) Latus exhaust coming to me in the mail next week from another Buell dude on another forum, and i was worried about the fuel issue, but this seems to be the perfect thing for me. I would rather spend the extra dollars then have to mess around with the mappings.

What do you guys think? I also have the parts (just haven't done it yet) for the breather re-route and plan on doing the airbox eliminator eventually. Exhaust and breather, then powerizer, then do the airbox?

thanks for the input.

sorry about spelling and grammar, today is my first day starting Mid-shift at work, and i am slapping myself in the face just to try and stay away.

[ChasCrewChief]

I have an 08 XB9. I made a F.A.S.T. intake replica with the K&N filter, rerouted the breathers to a catch can then added the Latus Muffler. I have not checked the plugs, But the F.I. system has not missed a beat[up] I have noticed that I am getting too old...The air box is louder (like a Blast on steroids) and the Latus is so much louder I seem to shift alot sooner just to stay under the police radar[down]. I have even added the "oldBuellrider" suggestion of adjustable plates in the tail pipes!
The bike looks great and sounds great warming up but I think I had more fun when it was new and reved up!
Of coarse there is always ear plugs..but I seem to loose them alot....must be the old age (52)

[LeFox]

hey deon...how are the dimensions and ground clearance?

belly spoiler still an option?

[Deon B]

Hi LeFox,

I hope you enjoyed the Kruger National Park, sorry or only replying now, I have been very busy

The ground clearance of the pipe is +- 2cm better than the old performance pipe; we use a 100mm x 4.5m. Aluminum tube with obviously the ‘right’ goodies inside, The total lentgh of the box is 32cm

The spoiler is still an option and we did manufacture the brackets, but I decided to leave the box open for the looks. The potential buyer can choose her/his own type of exit pipe, we have the dual as on the photo, dual either side, singe left or right and with different angles and cuts, the sky is actually the limit!!

Our Harley guys in Pretoria could at this stage not commission the dyno due to the noise factor and because their shop is in a ‘upmarket’ shopping complex, and yes, there is also a limit of noise allowed in South Africa.

We had a 250km run a week ago and again I found the pipe is worth the cost, it performs well, fuel consumption at an average of 150km/h let the bike run at 19km per litre of 93 unleaded fuel, I also at the same time had a scrap with an Thunderbolt with a buell performance pipe and yes, I tapped off at 200 and the bike could not catch me

[Tyler Oxton]

well i havnt looked at the date of this thread but im very interested in ur exhaust Deon B. Just had a few questions. First off are you running stock headers and second what do ur internals look like on that muffler. just wondering.

[Buell ZA]

Tyler, I am using the standard headers although we think that a larger diameter header could work better with our exhaust. I have a race Ecm on the bike with all other setting ‘fixed’ I therefore do not rely on any engine, Co2 sensor or the airflow sensor inputs, the bike is tuned with Ecm Spy and it goes well. The photo is the latest box we designed and it works well [see the Dyno chart], the latest and last changes makes the box now completely Stailess steel including the 'endcaps'. I also replaced the airfilter with a 'large' cone filter and the bike revlimiter is increased to 7100rpm http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/5475_20091206103741_L.jpghttp://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/5475_20091206112144_L.jpghttp://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/5475_20091206102913_L.jpg

[fakameanrepresent]

just bought a used buell race exhaust.

[albert666]

the remus powerizer is a well known waste of cash
i can hook you up with a decent exhaust too
http://www.aph-performance-engineering.com/