Is my battery stuffed?

[vomitbomb]

Hi all,

It had been a while since I started the Buell but I've had a few issues getting it going again. Firstly I could not get it started at all. Using the jump pack the starter sounded like it cranked the engine over once then nothing but clicking. I tried to jump off the car after that and still had the same issue. I did a bit of digging and found that it could have been the grounding wires so I cleaned them up and that finally allowed me to start the bike with the jump pack.

I still can't start it without the jump pack though and I've been charging the battery. The standing charge earlier was 12.5v, when I turned the ignition on it sat at 11.1v (lights on etc) then when I hit the starter I never saw it go below ~9.5v yet I still get the same result as before. I thought I was going to see the volts go down much lower if the battery was stuffed and didn't have enough grunt to start it. The battery is rated at 190CCAs, not sure whether or not that's an issue but it's never been one before. From what I have read the battery is apparently OK. I may be wrong.

Are the grounding wires still a little bit dirty? Does the jump pack have just that much more grunt that it overcomes this?

[vomitbomb]

Update:

I don't think I can edit the post twice. Can't seem to find the button again.

Just jumped the bike and went for a ride (around 20-30 minutes long) and that didn't seem to help it. I did notice the check engine light came on at high RPM as well which I have never seen before. Might just give up and take it to the shop, it's in need of a service anyway.

[thrstrmech]

Does seem like your battery is dead, get one with a minimum 200 CCA. Do you have a service manual? They are available here on the forum or via buellmods.com. Save your self some $$$ and learn to do the maintenance, not many Buell techs out there in HD shops and to mention piece of mind that it's been done right, just saying.

[vomitbomb]

Thanks Thrstrmech,

I've just come across the service manual which is going to help me a lot. It seems very difficult to find a mechanic around here that will work on Buells, or at least one that I am confident will do a good job.

The battery was sitting at 13.4v when I took it off the charger but it has slowly crept down to just above 12.7v which is where it has been sitting for a while. I'm going to check it again in the morning and see how much it has drained. I have another battery here which I know is in good working condition so I can replace it with that if I need to. I do hope the battery is what has caused the engine light to flick on at high RPM though. I've been reading about how I can get the error codes off the bike so if the battery doesn't stop that from showing up I'll give that a go too.

[vomitbomb]

The battery had dropped to 12.5v overnight so maybe it is stuffed or there's something on the bike draining it. I removed the battery to do the same test without anything plugged into it and took the opportunity to use a good working battery in its place. Started the Harley fine with the good battery, removed it then hooked it up to the Buell, still no good. Put it back in the Harley and again it started fine.

Strange, it's like the motorcycle batteries aren't strong enough to start the Buell, but jumping from the car or the jump pack itself (rated up to V8s etc) starts it fine. What does all this mean?

[vomitbomb]

Scrap that. I don't seem to be able to get enough juice no matter what I use now which is different to what I was experiencing before. The starter motor seems like it's struggling no matter what. I'm used to it sounding sluggish and always thought it was a characteristic of the bike but this seems a little excessive.

Anyone have any ideas?

[vomitbomb]

I know I seem to be talking to myself a lot but I thought it might be a good idea if I upload a video of what I'm experiencing.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vUJWJZXHuZA

Hopefully that gives some more clues.

Is there a way I can create an auxiliary ground using a a jumper cable or similar?

[AlanS]

The advice I got when I had a similar issue was: Clean the mating surfaces, cables and battery, at the Pos and Neg battery leads. Make them shine. Clean the mating surfaces, cable and post, of the big positive cable that goes to the starter. Clean the mating surfaces of the cables and the grounding surfaces under the air box, on the engine.

In my case the 'sluggish' starter turned out to be a marginal battery. I bought the HD item and it really cranks over now. But my understanding is, from reading here, there are a lot of starting issues related to corrosion on cables/wires and their junctures.

Alan

[user_deleted]

alan: 190 CCA's must be a chinese POS battery. the factory/dealer issue is 300 CCA's and a deka big crank is 320. these buells need every CCA they can get to start.

[ReadyXB]

Hi vomitbomb, this just needs some isolation and elimination.

First test: isolate the circuit so that only the battery and starter are involved. Apply battery +12v directly to the starter solenoid. Does it turn over at normal speed?
Gaining access to the solenoid wire may be difficult. It is a green wire on my 2008, so it's probably the same for 2009. Not sure if it will be easier to tap into the output of the starter relay or to try down at the starter itself. Removing the plastic sprocket cover might make it easier.

If the above test passes, you could be experiencing a large voltage drop somewhere before, or inside of, the starter relay. It's just a matter of continuing to eliminate whole pieces of the circuit until you isolate the failure.
If the test fails, you have eliminated the entire starter interlock circuit and can now focus on the battery, the battery+ wire going to the starter, and the starter itself. And as always, good grounds are no less important than any other part of the circuit!

[ztied]

You could be getting the cel becuase of the low current also, get a good high cca like mentioned above and ride the bike some to give it a chance to clear codes.

[vomitbomb]

Thanks for the reply's!

I ruled out the 190CCA battery and have tried a couple much larger batteries. That being said the 190CCA battery was installed when I went for a ride. It's never been a problem before but it may just be dying now.

Alan thanks for the info. I'll start cleaning up the contacts where I can, but first:

"First test: isolate the circuit so that only the battery and starter are involved. Apply battery +12v directly to the starter solenoid. Does it turn over at normal speed?"

Keep in mind that I'm not very mechanical so I'm not sure what this solenoid looks like or where it's located. I have the service manual now so I may be able to work it out.

If I connect a 12v+ battery to this solenoid should I also ground it elsewhere? Or is the starter grounding to the engine itself fine?

[ReadyXB]

The service manual should help you find the starter solenoid. There will be a green wire going into a plastic connector at the solenoid.

If I connect a 12v+ battery to this solenoid should I also ground it elsewhere? Or is the starter grounding to the engine itself fine?
I was thinking that you would connect a heavy-duty wire, such as a jumper cable, from the bike's battery + terminal to the starter solenoid.

Here is what I did:
1. Take a decent sized nail and mask off all but the tip and head with electrical tape:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/18oe37202ql1mue/Nail_tape.jpg
2. With the bike off, insert the tip of the nail into the back side of that plastic connector that the green starter solenoid wire goes into. You may have to wiggle it to one side or the other so that it wedges in with the metal terminal that's inside the plastic connector:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/b7bc2qj9xjo7c4j/nail_solenoid_red.jpg
3. Remove seat and lay a piece of paper or towel over the frame near the battery positive terminal.
This is to protect against accidental grounding of the battery

4. Connect a jumper cable to the battery + positive terminal.
BE SURE the other end of the cable isn't touching anything on the bike!
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/rwg0ao96pv3v9io/Jmpr_cable.jpg

5. Turn the Ignition switch and run/stop switch On

6. With the other (free) end of the jumper cable, touch it to the head of the nail.
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/jm3kcvn3j4xbowl/jumper_nail.jpg

The starter will turn over, and the bike should start. However, the purpose of this test is to see if the starter turns over normally, or is it still slow and labored as in your video?

Oh, be sure the bike is in neutral before touching that nail head!

[vomitbomb]

Cheers for the detailed instructions! If I get time I'll give this a shot tonight and let you know how I go.

Thanks.

[vomitbomb]

Hi ReadyXB,

I followed the above procedure but got the same result :( It's still struggling to turn over.

Could this still be an earth issue? Or did that test bypass that entirely? If so, what now? a replacement starter motor?

[vomitbomb]

I managed to find the engine earth and I could only just squeeze a jumper between the frame and attach it to the metal attaching itself to the head (where the engine earth is bolted onto). Is this fine or should I really take the airbox base off and connect it to the top? Seemed to have a pretty good grip where it was.

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/1mmb234psh9yae1/2014-08-28%2020.20.15.jpg

So that was connected straight back to the battery with the remainder connected as per the instructions above..

https://dl.dropbox.com/s/jqohzll9iu25iri/2014-08-28%2020.19.54.jpg

Still exactly the same result.

http://youtu.be/Ew75lJBovl8

So the starter earths through the engine. Any more ideas at this point?

[vomitbomb]

Youtube tags didn't seem to work so here's the link:

http://youtu.be/Ew75lJBovl8

[ReadyXB]

Still exactly the same result.
So the starter earths through the engine. Any more ideas at this point?
Excellent work! You have eliminated all of the switches and relays in the normal circuit and narrowed down the issue to only a few possibilities:
a) insufficient battery amperage and/or grounds
b) poor starter/engine ground
c) bad starter

Comments based on your test results and video:
a) insufficient battery amperage and/or grounds
You said earlier "I ruled out the 190CCA battery and have tried a couple much larger batteries. That being said the 190CCA battery was installed when I went for a ride. It's never been a problem before but it may just be dying now."
Would you agree that insufficient battery amperage is not the issue? And in your latest tests, you tied directly from the jumper battery negative cable to the engine, correct?

b) poor starter/engine ground
Though you explicitly made a good ground connection to the engine from your battery, there is still a nagging possibility that the starter somehow isn't grounded properly. However, the possibility is very remote in my opinion.

c) bad starter
This is my conclusion, remotely diagnosed of course and based on your problem description and tests. If you are absolutely sure the batteries being used are charged sufficiently and are in great shape, the starter is most likely bad. It does happen! But the last thing I want to happen is to recommend you get a new starter only to find out it still occurs.

[ReadyXB]

Ok, a few more thoughts. The statement you made has been bugging me: "I did a bit of digging and found that it could have been the grounding wires so I cleaned them up and that finally allowed me to start the bike with the jump pack.". Which ground did you clean?

More thoughts: no engine oil, primary chain adjusted too tight, etc... things that might make the engine itself have extra friction and therefore be more difficult to turn over. Before your starting troubles began, did you have any unusual noises with the engine running?

Also, did you ever read the code for your check engine light (CEL)? You can jumper pins 1-2 of the data link socket under your fairing and watch the CEL blinking pattern.

[nicholas900]

Your getting really good help from Ready[up]. Just double check that negitive jumper cable connection you made on the cylinder head bracket. Pretty sure it's powder coated. A good spot just to double check is to remove one of the nuts from your belt idler. Then put your ground jumper cable on the stud.

The wire you used the nail for (clever) is for the solenoid. You still haven't ruled out the heavy positive battery cable to your starter. That handles the load. If your looking at the wire you pushed the nail into. It's just a little left and up. It has a rubber boot on it. It is directly above an Allen head screw that attaches the rear engine mount to the engine. Pop up the boot and make sure it's not all corroded.

If you can find a way to get your positive jumper cable on it you could bypass that wire to rule it out. Keep in mind that wire is hooked directly to your battery, it is always "hot".

[ReadyXB]

Great ideas, nicholas900 [up] Two heads are better than one!

[nicholas900]

^Always!

Hey VBomb. Here's a quick sketch. It's by no means a wiring diagram. But it explains simply how the starter works, and how many mechanical grounds there are.

First pic shows basic electrical function.
http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad249/hellboy-5150/IMG_20140828_215820_742_1.jpg

Second pic shows an expanded view of the starter solenoid as it operates. When you push your starter button it sends 12v to the little green wire which energizes a coil pulling the heavy contact. This lets the current flow through the heavy wire from your battery to the starter motor itself. A way to look at the solenoid is as a relay. It's required so you don't have to run a heavy battery cable from your battery to your handle bar starter button and then back to the starter.

http://i940.photobucket.com/albums/ad249/hellboy-5150/IMG_20140828_215925_871.jpg

Hope this helps you, or someone else down the road understand it a little better. Good luck with it!

[vomitbomb]

Would you agree that insufficient battery amperage is not the issue? And in your latest tests, you tied directly from the jumper battery negative cable to the engine, correct?


Yeah that's correct. I've used a number of different batteries including the jump pack which is about 3 months old and saying fully charged.


Which ground did you clean?

I cleaned the one between the battery and the frame just next to it. I thin the fact that it started was just coincidental and din't have anything to do with the cleaning. It kinda makes sense as over the last 6 months or so I thought it was strange that the bike wouldn't even jump sometimes like every battery I used was somehow flat but then all the sudden it started from a battery that it didn't before!


More thoughts: no engine oil, primary chain adjusted too tight, etc... things that might make the engine itself have extra friction and therefore be more difficult to turn over. Before your starting troubles began, did you have any unusual noises with the engine running?

When I went for the ride and noticed the check engine light came on at high RPM my first thought was to check the engine oil when I got home and it was within spec. As for the primary chain. I don't know when that might have been adjusted but nothing on the engine has been touched in between a lot of rides. Unless it can somehow tighten itself? No unusual noises. It honestly ran great. better than I expected with the fuel in it that must have been stale.


Also, did you ever read the code for your check engine light (CEL)? You can jumper pins 1-2 of the data link socket under your fairing and watch the CEL blinking pattern.

Well I figured I needed to get it started again to see what it was and even then I'd need to sit there revving it at high RPM to produce a blinking pattern? I have an EBR ECM (the tune-able one). I'm not sure if that gives me some more functionality here.



Your getting really good help from Ready. Just double check that negitive jumper cable connection you made on the cylinder head bracket. Pretty sure it's powder coated. A good spot just to double check is to remove one of the nuts from your belt idler. Then put your ground jumper cable on the stud.


I didn't think the cylinder head bracket is powder-coated but I can check via the stud you mentioned too. Another thing I can do is take the air-box base off and to to the earth directly.



The wire you used the nail for (clever) is for the solenoid. You still haven't ruled out the heavy positive battery cable to your starter. That handles the load. If your looking at the wire you pushed the nail into. It's just a little left and up. It has a rubber boot on it. It is directly above an Allen head screw that attaches the rear engine mount to the engine. Pop up the boot and make sure it's not all corroded.


I was actually wondering whether or not I should try connecting the positive terminal to the starters main feed. I've located where it comes in so I just have to awkwardly attach a jumper or similar to it. As you mentioned, first I'll make sure it's not loose/corroded or something obvious.


Hope this helps you, or someone else down the road understand it a little better. Good luck with it!

I've been looking at a few schematics and animations which show how the starters work. Never thought about it before but it's definitely nice to know these things. Thanks for the diagram!

I'm no wiz with mechanics but I can try dismantling the starter to see whether or not it's stuffed. That kinda thing may take some time for me so I'm just going to re-do a lot of these tests first (to be extra sure) and maybe I can use that stud on the idler pulley Nicholas mentioned too.

[ReadyXB]

Good deal vomitbomb! Yeah, I was so focused on eliminating switches and relays that I forgot about the GIANT cable going from the battery to the starter, lol!

That kinda thing may take some time for me so I'm just going to re-do a lot of these tests first (to be extra sure) and maybe I can use that stud on the idler pulley Nicholas mentioned too.
The forum will be here, so take your time. Sounds like you have another vehicle to drive in the meantime, which is good.