Got a ticket... Any advice?

[09BuellXB9SX]

So I got a ticket yesterday... Thank goodness not for speeding but for crossing the double yellow lines to pass a vehicle on a back country road. Cop was right behind me and i didn't even know, car in front was going ridiculously slow, no oncoming traffic... Gotta see the judge in about a month. I now know its considered reckless driving in the state of VA :( I have 2 speeding tickets and 1 failure to obey a posted sign on my entire record. None on my motorcycle. Anyone have a similar experience and how did it turn out?

On a brighter note... here are some pics of my new exhaust!!
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/15818_20141201165611_L.jpg
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/15818_20141201165552_L.jpg
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/15818_20141201165530_L.jpg

[Shawns]

Who made it? It looks sooooooo much better that the stock.:D

[ljm]

Here is my experience, but probably worth what you pay for it.

I've been stopped for two high dollar, high point tickets over recent years. On the first one, I plead guilty. It was in the context of a bunch of whiners in court making excuses, begging, pleading and generally making asses of themselves. When it was my turn, I said I plead guilty. Just wasn't paying attention and drove too fast. Judge looked relieved, fined me $50, 2 points (vs. 900 and 6) I think just because he was tired of the other people and their lawyers.

The second time involved three family members stopped together all over 20 over the posted limit. We postponed as many times as they would allow, because it increases the chance that the Trooper will miss the court date, get transferred, show up (we asked for the earliers appt. in the morning). It worked. The trooper showed up 20 minutes late, arrived just as we were leaving. All tickets dismissed.

[AlanS]

You didn't check your rear-view and/or turn your head to look beside/behind you before you pulled out to pass? Or you saw the car behind you but didn't realize it was a cop? Either way, might be worthwhile to work on your decision-making process and gather a little more information--or more fully analyze it--before you make optional moves. The way folks drive around here, it wouldn't be unusual for someone behind you to get fed up before you do, and pull out to pass both of you at a high rate of speed.

If the tickets are far enough removed in time from one another, there might not be any cumulative effect. But if they've all occurred within a relatively short period of one another, it could lead to a bigger fine. Find out from your DMV what the time-frames are for such in Va.

Moving violations in Ca. go against the driver, regardless of which car/truck/bike he/she is riding at the time the ticket's issued. Va could be the same.

The legal ramifications in this instance might be the least of your worries, in reality. To me, you have too many moving violations. Even if they've occurred over the course of five years. You seem like you're either a little reckless…or very unlucky. I'm not saying this to be self-righteous. I'm worried about you. Or more particularly, your decision-making processes. Get mad, ok. But then…think about what I'm saying.

For what it's worth...

Alan

[09BuellXB9SX]

Totally appreciate your responses, no way I would be mad at you for your opinion, im a big boy. Ah yes I will definitely be owning up to my mistake for the judge, i refuse to make excuses for my actions. I figure the judge will respect that more and the first response gives me hope lol. As for the second one let me give a little more context to the story, I did get the ticket and so did my friend who was riding behind me. We were with 3 other riders one of which being a semi new rider who we had lost in the turns. After about 10 mins of waiting myself and my buddy went backwards fearing he had possibly gone off the road, the others waited on the side of the road. After going back to the beginning of the route with no signs of an accident we decided to go back, at this point we were worried so when we came to the extremely slow driver I waited until there was a long straight with no oncoming traffic, i checked my rear view, saw my buddy coming out the corner, and passed. He followed suit, later he told me that there was a white charger that was behind him unmarked, but was also anxious about his friend so he followed. Honestly I wasnt looking behind me very much as i was scanning the road for signs of a crash. The officer told us as he came around he saw me already getting over and my friend following. We told him the reason and he allowed us to make a call to our friend while he stood there, he heard him say he had took a wrong turn. We thought he would let us go at this point now that he knew we were telling the truth. Unfortunately, he said he could see why we were worried, but we were still getting our tickets. Im hoping he backs up our story in court and i think we will be alright.

The exhaust is from EBR themselves, comes with a ECM that is plug and play for it.

[djs2k2]

That new ebr exhaust is $399.00 nice!

[go cytocis]

Ah yes I will definitely be owning up to my mistake for the judgeThat's one strategy that might get a few bucks/demerits knocked off your fine. It might also be worth at-least considering another approach before committing to admitting guilt.

Hopefully you just quietly took your ticket from the LEO without any discussion to tip him off to any possible defense you might decide to use in court, or any chatter that will help him identify you in court. The foggier he is on the details of the incident, the better off you are in court. Some folks also recommend delaying your court appearance several times to increase the chances of the LEO forgetting details of the incident, and/or simply not showing up for the hearing.

Also, how freshly-painted were the lines on the road? Were they clearly visible? Obscured by leaves or other debris? What were the light conditions? Is it possible that the double yellow lines were not clearly visible(?).

On the technical side, scour the ticket for any errors or illegible hand-writing which might void the ticket. Did the LEO follow normal protocols during the stop?

There are plenty more questions which may be relevant in your case too. It may even be worth getting a little legal advice.

I'm not advocating running from responsibility, but simply pointing out your right to reasonable & proper process.

Good luck!

[WIGGLE2]

You feared for your OWN safety following someone traveling THAT slowly? (Someone COULD come up over knob, etc. and hit you? ).

[09BuellXB9SX]

The painted lines on the road is a very interesting defense, I never even thought of that, I will be sure to go back and check to see how good they are. Thanks for that one! Also, the delaying is really the only advice I have heard of so far, ill have to look into doing that too. Great advice so far ppl, thank you.

[user_deleted]

as a retired PA. State Police detective............i recommend this:
requesting a rescheduled hearing without provable "cause" will piss off the magistrate who will make notation of same on his/her copy of citation on file at his/her magisterial office and negatively influence his/her objectivity.

go online and completely read and comprehend the VA vehicle code as it specifically relates to the charge against you. is it illegal passing.....reckless driving.....driving at an unsafe speed....what is it? whatever the veh. code section study it. if it is reckless driving as you appear to believe it is you have an excellent defense. the prosecutor(the policeman) must prove that all road markings specifically designating "no passing" where you passed were legible, identifiable, and consistent with the code's requirements. study it...go back to the scene of the crime and check.

make ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN the policeman establishes "bailiwick". this is the precise location..time...date...magisterial district....municipality....county.....and state where offense took place. many miss this.

lastly...if it in fact IS reckless driving ask the policeman while he's on the stand to define reckless driving. MAKE NOTES as he does. then have him explain to the magistrate WHAT was specifically reckless about your pass. he will testify first.

then it's your turn. be polite....concise....accurate....and explain to the magistrate this was not the case of a hot-shot on a high-powered bike riding like a maniac. this was a case of what you believed to be safety for yourself and be prepared to explain why. ALL STATES allow for the passing of slow movers such as implements of husbandry...amish buggies....horse drawn vehicles....regardless of road markings.....IF and ONLY IF it can be done safely and quickly. invoke that rationale as part of your argument.

if you lose you gave it your best shot.
that will be $100 please. just deposit into my paypal account.:D

[mrlogix]

that will be $100 please. just deposit into my paypal account. :

:D LMAO

good advice though

[09BuellXB9SX]

Lunatic you the man! Great advice ill def do my research and ask exactly what you said. Thanks a lot!

[user_deleted]

my pleasure son. represent yourself and approach it logically. lawyers for stuff like this utterly useless and waste of valuable assets. what you're looking to do is NOT tip your hand. ask the policeman when he testifies what constitutes "reckless driving or riding". write down the focal points of his response. then ask him if he observed you perform any of these maneuvers. note what his response is as you'll use it in your brief closing argument. also ask him how long he was following you and if he recalls the approximate speed during this event. if he doesn't recall just let it be as that's in your favor. use that as well in your closing to corroborate that the vehicle directly ahead of you that you passed was travelling substantially below the posted limit and in your opinion falls under the guidelines in VA vehicle code for an acceptable over-taking maneuver on your part.

another $100 please. paypal preferred.

[mrlogix]

lunatic- I think you have found a new calling on the forum. :)

[user_deleted]

^^^^^^^ hey john......you have an "in" with any moderators? if so find out what's involved on my end to revise my ID so that it now reads "F. Lee Bailey". :p

[GregoXB]

Pleading guilty has gone badly for me every time. Max points and max fines. Try to fight it somehow. Calculate how many points you have on your license. If this ticket puts you at 9 points or greater, I would lawyer up, because one more speeding ticket and say goodbye to your license.

I got a 13 point speeding ticket a while back and I had no choice but to lawyer up. If I appeared in court, I might have been sent to jail. I had the money so I got a good lawyer and he knocked it down to a 4 pointer. He was good, he postponed and judge shopped for like 1 month till he got what he wanted. Cost me a pretty penny, but it was well worth it. I took a driver assessment course right after and got the points wiped down to 0.

[09BuellXB9SX]

Thanks for the advice, i am now going to fight it as i believe he cited me totally wrong. After much reading of the laws crossing double yellow lines is not automatic reckless, thats just the officers interpretation of it. Here is the law and the ones i believe i should have been given:

46.2-852. Reckless driving; general rule.

Irrespective of the maximum speeds permitted by law, any person who drives a vehicle on any highway recklessly or at a speed or in a manner so as to endanger the life, limb, or property of any person shall be guilty of reckless driving.

The following are all the laws i found that actually apply directly to me through the wording:

46.2-838. Passing when overtaking a vehicle.

The driver of any vehicle overtaking another vehicle proceeding in the same direction shall pass at least two feet to the left of the overtaken vehicle and shall not again drive to the right side of the highway until safely clear of such overtaken vehicle, except as otherwise provided in this article.

46.2-843. Limitations on overtaking and passing.

The driver of a vehicle shall not drive to the left side of the center line of a highway in overtaking and passing another vehicle proceeding in the same direction unless such left side is clearly visible and is free of oncoming traffic for a sufficient distance ahead to permit such overtaking and passing to be made safely.

No person operating a truck or combination of vehicles shall pass or attempt to pass any truck or combination of vehicles going in the same direction on an upgrade if such passing will impede the passage of following traffic.

§ 46.2-804. Special regulations applicable on highways laned for traffic.

Whenever any roadway has been divided into clearly marked lanes for traffic, drivers of vehicles shall obey the following: 7. Whenever a highway is marked with double traffic lines consisting of two immediately adjacent solid white lines, no vehicle shall cross such lines;

Basically he is trying to get me on the most extreme "catch all" law of reckless driving general, however i believe one or even 2 of the other laws is what i should have been fined for. All the others are minimum points and very small fines ($91 each including all court fees). He will have to prove that i endangered all life limbs and property by passing with no oncoming traffic, on a back country road, on a straight away, in perfect road conditions, during daylight, and without speeding. Im also going to look into possibly getting a lawyer today. Thanks all for your help, and what is your take from the laws i provided?

[go cytocis]

just the officers interpretation...what is your take from the laws i provided?I think you've discovered for yourself one of the fundamentals of the legal system: It's all in the interpretation.

I've successfully had every ticket I've ever received on motorcycles over the past couple of decades either thrown out, or at least had the penalties greatly reduced, by fighting them. I'm no legal expert but I have learned that, in spite of what us lay-people tend to believe, the law is not necessarily always the law.

Some other observations from my experience which might help you out:
- Judges, law enforcement & law-makers are distinct entities, each with their own biases, & they do not necessarily all agree with one-another. You can exploit the mis-alignments between them.
- Pick your defense (you can see from all the above suggestions that you have many to choose from) & stick with it. Focus every word that comes out of your mouth on supporting your defense.
- As lunatic pointed out above, use logical arguments which relate back to laws & process. I've not often seen emotion work well in traffic court.
- Use pictures to support your defense. As they say, a picture's worth a thousand words so if there is something about the scene that's relevant to your defense (unclear markings, signage, a crest in the road, whatever), go back & take a picture to present to the Judge. Just be prepared to surrender it as evidence.
- Dress for the occasion & use court-room etiquette. Little things like wearing a tie & addressing the Judge as "Your Honour" show the court (including the LEO who cited you) that you know what you're doing, you're serious about being there & in defending yourself.

Successfully fighting a ticket yourself is rewarding & a great educational experience; I applaud you for deciding to give it a try! :D

[Cooter]

1) Learn from it

2) Pay the penalty

3) Lick wounds

[jetlee]

§ 46.2-804. Special regulations applicable on highways laned for traffic.

Whenever any roadway has been divided into clearly marked lanes for traffic, drivers of vehicles shall obey the following: 7. Whenever a highway is marked with double traffic lines consisting of two immediately adjacent solid white lines, no vehicle shall cross such lines;
This will be the hard part to argue. It clearly says "no vehicle shall cross such lines;"

The lines before that say:

5. Wherever a highway is marked with double traffic lines consisting of a solid line immediately adjacent to a broken line, no vehicle shall be driven to the left of such line if the solid line is on the right of the broken line, but it shall be lawful to make a left turn for the purpose of entering or leaving a public, private, or commercial road or entrance.

6. Wherever a highway is marked with double traffic lines consisting of two immediately adjacent solid yellow lines, no vehicle shall be driven to the left of such lines, except when turning left;

If you weren't turning left, you got nailed by #5, #6 and #7.

If the vehicle you were passing was not a farm or service vehicle, but merely a passenger vehicle travelling slow, then the law is generally that you wait until permitted to pass by a dashed centerline.

Your best defense is going to be on a technicality, not the "passing the slow vehicle was safe for me" defense; if the DOT thought it was a safe place to pass, the lines would be dashed.


You got the reckless charge because you passed too close to a curve:

§ 46.2-854. Passing on or at the crest of a grade or on a curve.

A person shall be guilty of reckless driving who, while driving a vehicle, overtakes and passes another vehicle proceeding in the same direction, on or approaching the crest of a grade or on or approaching a curve in the highway, where the driver's view along the highway is obstructed, except where the overtaking vehicle is being operated on a highway having two or more designated lanes of roadway for each direction of travel or on a designated one-way roadway or highway.


The "Exceptions" for crossing a double yellow does not list "slow moving traffic", or anything similar.
https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+46.2-920

Virginia is pretty black and white, good luck.

[user_deleted]

The "Exceptions" for crossing a double yellow does not list "slow moving traffic", or anything similar.

you merely copied and pasted particular sections of the vehicle code then offered up your opinion as to how they apply. sure you're well intended but what you fail to grasp is that PA...VA....MA....and a few other states are commonwealths. part of their distinctions from other states is the colloquial nature in how they operate and govern. all commonwealths allow generalized exceptions regarding traversing public roads with "passing" being one of those exceptions. dates back to the late 18th century and contained in the VA consolidated statutes as well as Purdon's annotated. advisable to mention this to the magistrate when testifying. a high-priced well-trained experienced mouth-piece most likely would as part of a robust defense.

[jetlee]

So I copied and pasted the vehicle code, as did the OP. At least I pasted the entries relevant to his citation, so he can better prepare his defense.

Purdon's is PA, my quotes are from VA's statutes directly (https://leg1.state.va.us/cgi-bin/legp504.exe?000+cod+TOC46020000008000000000000).

Yes, generally there are provisions for farm equipment and vehicles that make frequent stops or move slowly by design, however the OP stated it was merely a "car" that was travelling slowly. Unless the car is pulling off the road, it is still generally frowned upon by LEO's to cross the double yellow.

I'm not saying he deserves it, I've passed on double yellow and I will again. I'm simply pointing out the text that he's up against, is not in his favor and he should focus more on the technicalities than finding a loophole to fit into.

Regardless of what vehicle he was passing and why, his "reckless driving" was likely due to location, too close to a curve, not the situation of the slow vehicle.

[user_deleted]

Purdon's is PA LOL

just get this guy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50f7L-RPaXU

[jetlee]

Every ticket I've received, they wrote the exact code that was violated. Check your ticket and post what the violation was, that would really help narrow it down.

[09BuellXB9SX]

Awesome discussion, really helping me out here and I appreciate everyone's input.

So to start I would like to say that my defense will not be that passing the slow moving vehicle was safe for me to do, as im sure that would not go over well at all. My defense would be that I did not commit Reckless Driving as defined by the state of VA, but rather that I crossed double yellow lines to pass another vehicle and should be charged as such.

Code § 46.2-854. Passing on or at the crest of a grade or on a curve. This does not apply to me as I was not approaching or on any crest or curve in the road, the passing was done on a long straight flat section of the highway with no curves approaching whatsoever.

Spoke with a lawyer today and she didn't operate in the area where my ticket was issued so she refereed me to another ill call tomorrow. She did state that based on the brief facts I gave her most of the time cases like mine are dropped to "improper driving" and I would most likely have to complete a drivers improvement class. Her #1 recommendation for me was too NOT plead guilty. Ill have to speak with them in more detail tomorrow and ill let you know what they say!

[mrlogix]

photo's of the scene of the crime.....:D

better than TV crime stuff or news of more riots over police actions...just sayin

[go cytocis]

Her #1 recommendation for me was too NOT plead guilty.[up]
Once you've plead guilty it doesn't matter how poorly the cop may have done his job, how ill-conceived the law may be, what condition the road markings might have been in, or if any other factors should be considered; you've just simply rolled-over & accepted whatever punishment is coming your way.

[GregoXB]

Yea, DO NOT PLEAD GUILTY. You are innocent until proven guilty. Also, if the ticket gets reduced or dropped, it reflects poorly on the officer's record. So, it is your duty to teach him how to put aside his predjudice and issue the appropriate citations. Some guys have said they did it alone, but that can get hairy. IMO, get a traffic lawyer with an offce near the court house who knows all the judges. Google him/her, try to find reviews, talk to people who have used him/her.... lord knows there are plenty of douche bag, good for nothing lawyers out there.

[WIGGLE2]

Also.....offer NO info to the cop. NONE! Regardless of WHAT he TRIES to tell you! I buried myself once trying to be honest with a cop......NEVER again!

[go cytocis]

offer NO info to the cop[up]
There's an old adage, "save it for the judge". Unless you're 100% sure you can talk your way out of a ticket right there on the side of the road with the cop, it's in your best interest just to keep your mouth shut & offer no more information than you're obligated to. This includes small talk. Otherwise you risk finding out that, yes indeed, anything you say can & will be used against you in court...

[chief_of_smoke]

There's an old adage, "save it for the judge". Unless you're 100% sure you can talk your way out of a ticket right there on the side of the road with the cop, it's in your best interest just to keep your mouth shut & offer no more information than you're obligated to. This includes small talk. Otherwise you risk finding out that, yes indeed, anything you say can & will be used against you in court...

and misconstrude and taken out of context. they can be worse that the media. lawyers can be a good thing. especialy when the judge recomends them to other people. as is my case fighting a o.w.i. its been 2 years 2 months with out a court date or iniatal appearance. got to love federal court.

[GregoXB]

When a cop first walks up to you, you can try an apology and ask for a warning, after that, don't say much more. If you say something silly, it will appear on the bottom of your summons. If you are in a state that requires a signature on the ticket, just sign it and be on your way. Don't make your traffic stop memorable for him.

Hopefully the ticket will be dismissed or significantly reduced. I would recommend a lawyer depending on how severe the violation is and how many points it carries. Pay all fees and fines. For state's that have driver assessment fees, pay the whole fine in one installment. Take a driver's safety course, most are online, and can drop up to 4 points off your license. I believe it can be taken once every two years in most states.

[go cytocis]

When a cop first walks up to you, you can try an apology and ask for a warningI'm all for being cordial but I would never offer up an apology; that could be interpreted as an admission of guilt.

I do always shut my bike off, remove my helmet & keep my hands where the LEO can see 'em. I'll then ask for permission to dismount the bike to access my registration & insurance. You want to make the cop feel as comfortable with you as possible.

[GregoXB]

Yea you're right. I guess asking for a warning would be better.

[AZmidget91]

I got an reckless driving ticket a few years ago. Got a lawyer, and he screwed up and got me a warrant for my arrest and license suspended because he missed a court date. After that, made a plea deal for criminal speeding instead, when I was signing the papers I notice my name was misspelled, I didn't say anything until we left and asked the lawyer. He said he saw it too and was hoping I wouldn't point it out to the judge because it would probably get thrown out. Well, he was right, never went on my record.

So, long story short, I suggest a lot of luck...

[GregoXB]

Lol, no doubt, there are alot of douche bag lawyers out there. I recall second guessing myself a few times after I hired my lawyer. Nothing is guaranteed. Internet helps though, you can read reviews and do research. It's also good to contact your lawyer at least once a week especially around the time your court date is creeping up just to touch base and maintain communication. I recall calling my lawyer 4 times before the matter was settled. Sort of a, "Hey don't forget about me." Usually they are juggling 5-6 tickets at a time, so it's good to remind them.

[ztied]

Don`t remember where I seen it, ( I am in tn) but the law also states a slow moving vehicle is supposed to pull over if it is slowing down traffic,and/ or there are at least 5 cars in line behind it, Don`t know if that would help,or the oil that was spewing from the exhuast of the car in front of you was unsafe???

[09BuellXB9SX]

Just wanted to drop buy and give yall an update on my status. Original court date was the 6th of jan, but now has been rescheduled about a month later due to my lawyer having federal court that day. As it stands right now the lawyer is going to try and get me off completely since the cop immediately followed us when we crossed the double line and he would not have done that if it was truly a reckless thing to do. if that doesnt work hes also bringing up the fact that i was cited wrond since crossing the double yellow line is not reckless by definition. He said most likely ill get off completely and have to take a driver education course, or ill get the correct crossing double lines ticket of about 90 dollars including all court fees. I will give you guys another update with the turn out.

[GregoXB]

What are the points associated with "crossing double lines?"

The driver education course is recommended to be done after the matter has been settled and the points are assessed. A course can drop up to 4 points off your license, and most of the courses now are online and can be taken every 2 years to reduce points. You have to stay by your computer the whole time though. I watched a movie while I did mine.

[09BuellXB9SX]

46.2-804 is 4 Points

[GregoXB]

How many points were issued with your original charge?

[09BuellXB9SX]

I honestly have no clue but reckless is a criminal charge so im sure its something crazy, they give it to ppl who drive after drinking and cause accidents or going 20+ over the speed limit that sort of thing.

[GregoXB]

That's insane. Must have been his first motorcycle catch. You probably made his year.

[Tbone]

I hope the judge sees this correctly and your charges get reduced. Do you have an option for a jury trial? Not sure if being on a motorcycle would appeal to a jury's common sense? In your situation I probably would have done the same thing especially if I was 2 up, just because I would not have wanted to get rear ended. Getting somewhere alive is the highest priority. Did the police car have it's lights on when you passed? Then in my opinion he was trolling for you to make a move for safety sake, then bust you for it. If he was truly looking out for your weill being he would have had his lights on so the the cars coming from behind would have been alerted way ahead of time. Instead he passes the car in distress leaving a potentially dangerous situation to write you a ticket for some wreckless driving charge. When in reality he was being wreckless passing a distressed vehicle leaving it vulnerable to a rear end collision, that you had to avoid because he was not taking charge of the dangerous situation. I guess dead people cannot go to court and complain to the judge about what really happened? Keep Alert and Alive! Hope everything goes well and set them straight respectfully of course. If you go down for this at least you will let them know that no one was looking out for yours or the cars well being!

[JonsXB12SS]

Your best bet is to hire an attourney and see if he can get the charges reduced. BUT, you have to give them a reason to work with you. AKA: this ticket will effect my work insurance or your ability to work.

I had a 52 in a 25 (27 over carries 4 pts + fine) speeding ticket. Long story short: I hired an lawyer for $500 they reduced the speed to a 29 in a 25 (4 over that carries 0 points ) and a max fine of $150 with another $150 in court costs. $803.00 + time & gas = 0 points

Pay the fine and live another day...

[09BuellXB9SX]

UPDATE:

Ok everyone so i had my court date yesterday, Friday the 6th. I hired the attorney as i said and he spoke to the cop before going up to the judge. He basically said hi they both have good records and was there any oncoming traffic. Cop stated no and that we were polite, attorney said do you agree to dropping it to a moving violation instead, cop agreed we went before the judge and he approved. Bam I was out in about 20 mins, ended up still getting a 3 point ticket and paying 180 dollars but online driving school will take it away. All in all I was satisfied with what the outcome and it feels good to not having that court date and worry over my head. I haven't even been riding! You know ill be out tomorrow haha!

[GregoXB]

What state are you in?

[09BuellXB9SX]

Virgina i mean Virginia lol

[Tbone]

Wow, glad it worked out!!