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View Full Version : NRHS Stage 2 for 07 XB12R



cjmech
03-03-2015, 07:52 PM
So I am stuck in making a decision on weather or not I want to just do the big bore kit and call it good or spend the extra 1100 and go to the full on stage 2 kit that NRHS offers.

I dont race the bike but plan on doing some track days. I would like to have more power however my concern is spending an extra $1000+ and only netting a marginal increase hp numbers....

Has anyone here gone this route? Impressions? Worth the money?

My bike currently has 22k miles and is pretty tired which is why I am wanting to freshen her up. A lot of blow by and when shes hot you can hear the pistons rattling a bit lol.

Any helpful info is greatly appreciated.

Cj

squidbuellie
03-03-2015, 08:09 PM
Just replace the Pistons and rings maybe even a 3 angle valve job, slap it back together and call it good......
Then use the extra money and buy a 750 track bike....

Bullettooth023
03-03-2015, 09:54 PM
In the middle of a similar build. I chose to keep the stock bore and spend my money else where. Full port, valve job, larger valves, XB9 pistons, chamber cut, full exhaust system from Dean Adams, and possibly cams. All total I'm gonna be in it around $1400(without cams). I work at a machine shop so I'm saving money there but I'll get a build thread going so you can see what all I've done.

lawdog
03-05-2015, 01:31 PM
I have a 2009 XB12R with 20k. I am doing the equivalent of a stage 3 for my bike with Hammer Performance as we speak. Just sent off my heads, intake, and cams, yesterday. I am looking for 100 ft/lbs torque across a wide power band for street use.

Look at the total package. Just doing headwork, cams, big bore, etc will not let you maximize gains unless you look at everything as a whole. Do the heads flow what the engine requires, does the intake and exhaust move the air, does your tuning compensate for the changes you made, what about fuel requirements, etc.

Do each one of these components match?
1. Case/bore sizes, (stock, 1250 bolt on kit, 88, etc)
2. Head work / valves
3. Cams
4. Fueling (ie higher psi fuel pressure regulator, or higher lbs/hr injectors)
5. Exhaust (headers & muffler)
6. Intake (filter, cover, and tb/intake)
7. Tuning

Just bolting on bigger jugs will probably not yield you satisfactory results if the heads (squish, flow, compression, etc) don't match. Heads won't do you much good if the intake or exhaust can't handle the flow. Intake/exhaust won't do much good if you are maxing out the injectors (hint I maxed out mine with bolt-ons). Etc. One component can be a limiting factor (both if it is stock or if overdone compared to other mods).

Here is my build.
1. Open up the airbox, install K&N filter
2. Ceramic coat headers, high flow/low restriction muffler
3. Install Delphi FP10153 fuel pressure regulator, new filter and strainer
4. 1250 bolt on big bore kit
5. Head work
6. Cams
7. Port tb/intake
8. Wideband tune when I get it back together

Unfortunately I have two feet of snow in my backyard so it will be a while before I can give you feedback. But it is a package Aaron, from Hammer Performance, and I worked together on and I am expecting great results. From stock to this build I have $2,500 invested. $2k for the build from Hammer, muffler I build myself, and the rest for the wideband, K&N air filter, ceramic coat, etc.

Brett




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cjmech
03-06-2015, 08:34 PM
Brett,

Not sure what your getting at but I was only asking for results from anyone that has done a similar build. Ive built engines for years and know what factors need to be considered. I am just having a hard time justifying the cost only to gain 15hp....

My question to you however is why do you suggest the FPR change? Does it net higher pressure since you maxxed your injectors with bolt ons as you stated? (how much?)

Thanks.

lawdog
03-07-2015, 01:34 AM
Yes I am swapping out the fpr since I am maxing out the stock injectors right now at around 4k peak and again at 6-7k. Increase fuel psi to allow more volume for the same injectors. Once it comes in the mail I am going to bench test both. If you wanted to stay cheap I would do the big bore kit with at least some light head work for more flow. (along with fresh valve stem seals) I can't offer any feedback on just a 1450 kit with everything else stock. Sorry.

Have you done all the bolt ons already? K&N, muffler, tuning, etc and still want more power?

I think for me I did all the bolt ons. Got a wideband and tuned it but wanted more. Went to XB9 gears and loved the acceleration but hated low top speed. So now I am into my build to get that acceleration but go back to XB12 gears to keep the top end.

Is your blowby from valve stem seals? You may be into your heads regardless. At 20k my bores still have crosshatch and look brand new. Beginning to wonder if it was rebuilt by previous owner or what!

Bullettooth023
03-07-2015, 05:55 PM
Lawdog my motor is at 28k and still has the cross hatch as well. Rings weren't terrible either

cjmech
03-08-2015, 04:14 AM
I have the k&n, Race ECM and Drummer exhaust.

Blow-by is the cylinder pressures pushing past the rings into the crankcase this pushes excessive oil vapors into the airbox or catch can if one is installed. When this is excessive you'll get fuel in the oil as well which is bad as it dilutes the oil and can cause bearing damage.

With the amount of piston slap I am hearing when its hot I have rings stuck or they are just wore out.

lawdog
03-08-2015, 05:20 AM
Stock fuel pressure regulator puts out 48 psi. Replaced for 58 psi one. Also sent out my injectors to be cleaned.

Chicknstripn
04-07-2015, 04:55 AM
On my 2007 xb12r I have a 1250kit, 540cams, zippers lifters, beehive valve springs to support stage 2 head work from NRHS, the proper pushrods for the build, open airbox, Buell race ECM and a jardine pipe.
I performed this rebuild because my crank crapped out. So I also had the crank balanced and lightened. In an attempt to maximize the compression of the new build I also set my squish right at 30thousandths of an inch.
My limiting factor right now is my tuning. I'm not a pro with it so it's slow going.
However, from the start I knew this would be my limiting factor.
The biggest seat of the pants difference I feel is the crank!
All the other stuff gets lost in the wash of money that I thought would make a difference.
If you HAVE to split your cases, get that crank balanced and lightened. If you don't, freshen the pistons up with new rings and a tighter squish and spend the money you save on an exhaust with dual O2 sensors and some dyno time.
Tuning will pay greater dividends rather than displacement on our bikes.
Also, if I had to do it all again Id follow the above advice of squidbillie and spend the minimum to bring my bike back to stock and use what I saved for a rice rocket track bike.
That's my advice from my experience with a 1250kit.
That's what you asked for.... Right?

Chicknstripn
04-07-2015, 04:59 AM
BTW if you truly get 15hp out of your build please post before and after dyno charts

heagachongoose
04-07-2015, 10:37 AM
Hp is expensive. If you want the most results, look into forced induction.


[cool][up] cant wait to hear that beast purr Brett. That thing is going to be a hoot!

lawdog
04-07-2015, 03:11 PM
Well the powdercoater informed me last week I had a small crack in the header so I have to get that welded up. My welder must have missed it when he installed the front bung. Also Hammer has the heads right now and with it being Spring they are a bit behind. So it will be several more weeks. Along the way I have been installing handlebar risers, heated grips, shift light, voltage gauge, new fan, new belt, made a couple more mufflers to play with. I have been busy! LOL

I might completely revamp my fuel maps as well to use the unused portion. If I get time I will play around with it.

Still undecided on the XB9 chain. I ran it on my last setup and enjoyed it. If I don't get the acceleration I want with the 1250 kit then I will throw on the XB9 chain for better acceleration.

Brett

lawdog
04-07-2015, 03:19 PM
What difference did you notice with the crank? Better acceleration? As in higher rpms faster or better pull down low? Did you do it all the work at once? How did you tell the difference between the crank effects vs increased bore vs increased engine efficiency?

You are so right on tuning! So many people shy away from tuning but it is the biggest improvement! Even just shutting off closed loop and running a richer AFR will net you nice gains. Of course tuning it properly with a wideband is where it is at. I use a ZT2 and datalog with a Palm Pilot. Adjust my maps by hand using an excel speadsheet. Old school but works.

Chicknstripn
04-07-2015, 04:13 PM
I'm gun shy with the tuning. It's a confusing world for me. I tried data logging but my laptop doesn't like riding in a backpack.
The crank is a ton smoother and spins up faster. I believe that has transformed the engine characteristics of the bike. It was the first big difference I noticed when I was breaking in the engine after the rebuild. It was just so smooth. Well, from what a Buell xb feels like stock.
I'm sure I have more pull down low and it certainly pulls harder up top.
That's where I really feel the head work cams and 1250 kit have made a difference.
However, I as stated before, I'm probably not getting everything I can out of my build. And that's due to my lack of tuning expertise.
I did all the work at one time. And I knew the tuning would be my biggest obstacle. I've owned the bike since it was brand new. I'll never get rid of it so it will always be a work in progress.
My advise to anyone wanting more power from their bike is to exhaust all the less expensive bolt on options, such as intake exhaust and fuel injection tuning before jumping straight to a big bore kit.
I might be running 10hp more than I was with the stock components. It's hard to tell without back to back dyno runs.
Anyway, any competent tuner can probably accomplish the same feat.
The problem with Buells is the fact that if you can't tune the bike yourself... Good luck finding someone that can.
Lawdog- I've seen your name attached to several threads and from what I've read it seems like you know a thing or two about tuning. So I'm sure you'll see great results from your build.
For me the results have been meh. Especially when I think about the amount of money I dumped into my bike.
Little things will add up quick!

lawdog
04-07-2015, 05:25 PM
For tuning you need a wideband to read the AFR. A datalogger to record the data. Software to view, manipulate, and understand the data in your computer. And a way to write changes to the ECM.

I use a ZT2 wideband with a Palm Pilot and Datalogger software. I convert the logs with ZTPViewer and analyze with Winlogview. I then make changes in an Excel spreadsheet and upload the changes to the ECM. My way is honestly old school compared to Ecmspy or the work Mike did with Tunerpro. There are many newer, better programs for logging and analyzing the data but what I have works and is free!

I have written a ton of stuff on here about tuning. It is not all that user friendly but you either pay for someone to tune it, pay for mail order ECM from EBR, Ecmspy, or Tunerpro.

I was running out of fueling just with bolt-ons so I had to upgrade to a higher psi fuel pressure regulator for more fuel volume. So I will be back to square one with my tune. I also had the fuel injectors cleaned so that should make a difference as well.

Once I get the cams, heads, and bore kit I will start a new thread and quit hijacking this one! haha

Brett

Chicknstripn
04-07-2015, 11:25 PM
Well, the original post did ask for opinions from experiance.....
I have to start researching the ZT2 set up. That's definitely my next big move to make the bike better!

cjmech
04-08-2015, 06:52 PM
All good and very relavent info so i dont mind!!

Thanks for everyones input so far.

I Installed the 1250 kit over the weekend, rebuilt the heads and installed the new clutch. Re-wrapped the header with a titanium heat wrap as well. Tonight the new fuel pump, FPR and filter will be installed and then hopefully tomorrow with be my first ride since tearing it down. I fired it up last night and it sounds mean with the extra compression, my fuel pump is weak so I dont want to ride it till the new one is in.

Next will be the tuning......

Bullettooth023
04-08-2015, 07:33 PM
Mine is going back together Friday. Hoping to have it on the dyno by the middle of the week

Chicknstripn
04-17-2015, 10:03 PM
Another tip I should have mentioned is to make sure your timing is set correctly. I did the "scribe line" method mentioned in the service manual when I disassembled the motor. I made sure the stock position of the timing plate was a baseline for the rebuild.
I could not get confident results setting the static timing with the method from service manual. Therefore, I combined a method that had been suggested on different posts by several competent Buellers:
I did the following after putting the bike on a stand, putting the transmission in 5th gear and removing the timing inspection plug. Also it's a good idea to use a rubber band or zip tie to insure the front brake is applied. This insures the bike doesn't move forward. These engines can be difficult to manually rotate.
I pulled the front spark plug and rotated the engine until I saw the timing mark centered in the inspection window. I then used a thin plastic wire to measure the distance from the top of the spark plug hole to the top of the piston. When I was confident I had manually found TPC(for the front cylinder), with the flywheel timing marks perfectly centered in the inspection window, I turned the key on and flipped the kill switch to run. DO NOT THUMB THE STARTER!!!! I then turned the timing plate clockwise until I heard the fuel pump prime. Your set up my require you to move the timing plate counter clockwise.
I then hooked the bike up to ECMspy and checked that my static timing was correct.
AND according to the service manual and ECMspy I set my static timing perfectly.
By just using the method in the service manual I could not produce confident results. Doing it this way I was absolutely confident that my timing was correct.
I actually had to advance my timing about 1 degree from the stock position for my cams. I'm sure other bikes, other builds will be different.
Hope this helps anyone having issues setting the timing on a new build.

coronadomarine09
12-08-2015, 12:58 PM
Lawdog where did you get your fuel pressure regulator from?
I have done a similar build like yours but from NRHS Stage two head work Intake is 1.9 exhaust is 1.7
1250 bolt on kit. Stage 3 cams, open air box with K&N Filter and xb9 primary sprocket on my xb12 engine.

Mattm67
05-13-2018, 09:55 PM
Lawdog how did your build tune go? I have a 04 xb12r and motor comes back from Hammer tomorrow. we did 1250 kit(30 degree domed 10.5:1)RS605/591 cams,crush head work(7mm) with 1.9intakes and 1.6 exhaust, a set of their pushrods10.676x065x3/8intake and 10.730exhaust. I am kinda stressing over the tuning. i talked to tim from ids and in his experience i need to get it on a dyno and tune it. im guessing id have to do a dyno breakin as well. any advice or thoughts ?

Subarubrat
05-17-2018, 11:48 PM
I have a fairly similar engine build (just a bit more aggressive) and had gotten the tune acceptable on my own, but not perfect. When I did my engine build, I installed the race tune and upped it by 10% on fuel across the board. I did break in per Hammer's instructions and then started making more specific changes. If you do the same you should be ok. Recently, I bought a Tunabuell from the guy who does the Buelltooth interface and am working through that process now. The only glitch is that for some reason my droid tablet will run for a min or two and quit logging so I am on hold until I get a chance to grab a new tablet this weekend and get back to tuning. The kit installs easily and gathers data from it's wideband 02 sensor and rolls up that data into a log that is sent back to the tuner, he makes map adjustments and sends you an updated tune. This is pretty much the tuning solution we have been waiting on.

https://www.buelltooth.com/tunabuell.html

vicenzajay
06-27-2018, 10:15 PM
I have a fairly similar engine build (just a bit more aggressive) and had gotten the tune acceptable on my own, but not perfect. When I did my engine build, I installed the race tune and upped it by 10% on fuel across the board. I did break in per Hammer's instructions and then started making more specific changes. If you do the same you should be ok. Recently, I bought a Tunabuell from the guy who does the Buelltooth interface and am working through that process now. The only glitch is that for some reason my droid tablet will run for a min or two and quit logging so I am on hold until I get a chance to grab a new tablet this weekend and get back to tuning. The kit installs easily and gathers data from it's wideband 02 sensor and rolls up that data into a log that is sent back to the tuner, he makes map adjustments and sends you an updated tune. This is pretty much the tuning solution we have been waiting on.

https://www.buelltooth.com/tunabuell.html


Subarubrat....very interested in your progress. I'm considering a similar upgrade, but there are *no* dyno tuners close with whom to take care of the engine.

Did you do cam work as well? Head work?

marcel
11-14-2018, 08:55 AM
I have a fairly similar engine build (just a bit more aggressive) and had gotten the tune acceptable on my own, but not perfect. When I did my engine build, I installed the race tune and upped it by 10% on fuel across the board. I did break in per Hammer's instructions and then started making more specific changes. If you do the same you should be ok. Recently, I bought a Tunabuell from the guy who does the Buelltooth interface and am working through that process now. The only glitch is that for some reason my droid tablet will run for a min or two and quit logging so I am on hold until I get a chance to grab a new tablet this weekend and get back to tuning. The kit installs easily and gathers data from it's wideband 02 sensor and rolls up that data into a log that is sent back to the tuner, he makes map adjustments and sends you an updated tune. This is pretty much the tuning solution we have been waiting on.

https://www.buelltooth.com/tunabuell.html



Please tell us your experience with this setup. How to install (especially the wideband sensor) communication with tuner and of course, does the bike run better afterwards!!