NRHS Stage 2 for 07 XB12R

[cjmech]

So I am stuck in making a decision on weather or not I want to just do the big bore kit and call it good or spend the extra 1100 and go to the full on stage 2 kit that NRHS offers.

I dont race the bike but plan on doing some track days. I would like to have more power however my concern is spending an extra $1000+ and only netting a marginal increase hp numbers....

Has anyone here gone this route? Impressions? Worth the money?

My bike currently has 22k miles and is pretty tired which is why I am wanting to freshen her up. A lot of blow by and when shes hot you can hear the pistons rattling a bit lol.

Any helpful info is greatly appreciated.

Cj

[squidbuellie]

Just replace the Pistons and rings maybe even a 3 angle valve job, slap it back together and call it good......
Then use the extra money and buy a 750 track bike....

[Bullettooth023]

In the middle of a similar build. I chose to keep the stock bore and spend my money else where. Full port, valve job, larger valves, XB9 pistons, chamber cut, full exhaust system from Dean Adams, and possibly cams. All total I'm gonna be in it around $1400(without cams). I work at a machine shop so I'm saving money there but I'll get a build thread going so you can see what all I've done.

[lawdog]

I have a 2009 XB12R with 20k. I am doing the equivalent of a stage 3 for my bike with Hammer Performance as we speak. Just sent off my heads, intake, and cams, yesterday. I am looking for 100 ft/lbs torque across a wide power band for street use.

Look at the total package. Just doing headwork, cams, big bore, etc will not let you maximize gains unless you look at everything as a whole. Do the heads flow what the engine requires, does the intake and exhaust move the air, does your tuning compensate for the changes you made, what about fuel requirements, etc.

Do each one of these components match?
1. Case/bore sizes, (stock, 1250 bolt on kit, 88, etc)
2. Head work / valves
3. Cams
4. Fueling (ie higher psi fuel pressure regulator, or higher lbs/hr injectors)
5. Exhaust (headers & muffler)
6. Intake (filter, cover, and tb/intake)
7. Tuning

Just bolting on bigger jugs will probably not yield you satisfactory results if the heads (squish, flow, compression, etc) don't match. Heads won't do you much good if the intake or exhaust can't handle the flow. Intake/exhaust won't do much good if you are maxing out the injectors (hint I maxed out mine with bolt-ons). Etc. One component can be a limiting factor (both if it is stock or if overdone compared to other mods).

Here is my build.
1. Open up the airbox, install K&N filter
2. Ceramic coat headers, high flow/low restriction muffler
3. Install Delphi FP10153 fuel pressure regulator, new filter and strainer
4. 1250 bolt on big bore kit
5. Head work
6. Cams
7. Port tb/intake
8. Wideband tune when I get it back together

Unfortunately I have two feet of snow in my backyard so it will be a while before I can give you feedback. But it is a package Aaron, from Hammer Performance, and I worked together on and I am expecting great results. From stock to this build I have $2,500 invested. $2k for the build from Hammer, muffler I build myself, and the rest for the wideband, K&N air filter, ceramic coat, etc.

Brett




.

[cjmech]

Brett,

Not sure what your getting at but I was only asking for results from anyone that has done a similar build. Ive built engines for years and know what factors need to be considered. I am just having a hard time justifying the cost only to gain 15hp....

My question to you however is why do you suggest the FPR change? Does it net higher pressure since you maxxed your injectors with bolt ons as you stated? (how much?)

Thanks.

[lawdog]

Yes I am swapping out the fpr since I am maxing out the stock injectors right now at around 4k peak and again at 6-7k. Increase fuel psi to allow more volume for the same injectors. Once it comes in the mail I am going to bench test both. If you wanted to stay cheap I would do the big bore kit with at least some light head work for more flow. (along with fresh valve stem seals) I can't offer any feedback on just a 1450 kit with everything else stock. Sorry.

Have you done all the bolt ons already? K&N, muffler, tuning, etc and still want more power?

I think for me I did all the bolt ons. Got a wideband and tuned it but wanted more. Went to XB9 gears and loved the acceleration but hated low top speed. So now I am into my build to get that acceleration but go back to XB12 gears to keep the top end.

Is your blowby from valve stem seals? You may be into your heads regardless. At 20k my bores still have crosshatch and look brand new. Beginning to wonder if it was rebuilt by previous owner or what!

[Bullettooth023]

Lawdog my motor is at 28k and still has the cross hatch as well. Rings weren't terrible either

[cjmech]

I have the k&n, Race ECM and Drummer exhaust.

Blow-by is the cylinder pressures pushing past the rings into the crankcase this pushes excessive oil vapors into the airbox or catch can if one is installed. When this is excessive you'll get fuel in the oil as well which is bad as it dilutes the oil and can cause bearing damage.

With the amount of piston slap I am hearing when its hot I have rings stuck or they are just wore out.

[lawdog]

Stock fuel pressure regulator puts out 48 psi. Replaced for 58 psi one. Also sent out my injectors to be cleaned.

[Chicknstripn]

On my 2007 xb12r I have a 1250kit, 540cams, zippers lifters, beehive valve springs to support stage 2 head work from NRHS, the proper pushrods for the build, open airbox, Buell race ECM and a jardine pipe.
I performed this rebuild because my crank crapped out. So I also had the crank balanced and lightened. In an attempt to maximize the compression of the new build I also set my squish right at 30thousandths of an inch.
My limiting factor right now is my tuning. I'm not a pro with it so it's slow going.
However, from the start I knew this would be my limiting factor.
The biggest seat of the pants difference I feel is the crank!
All the other stuff gets lost in the wash of money that I thought would make a difference.
If you HAVE to split your cases, get that crank balanced and lightened. If you don't, freshen the pistons up with new rings and a tighter squish and spend the money you save on an exhaust with dual O2 sensors and some dyno time.
Tuning will pay greater dividends rather than displacement on our bikes.
Also, if I had to do it all again Id follow the above advice of squidbillie and spend the minimum to bring my bike back to stock and use what I saved for a rice rocket track bike.
That's my advice from my experience with a 1250kit.
That's what you asked for.... Right?

[Chicknstripn]

BTW if you truly get 15hp out of your build please post before and after dyno charts

[heagachongoose]

Hp is expensive. If you want the most results, look into forced induction.


[cool][up] cant wait to hear that beast purr Brett. That thing is going to be a hoot!

[lawdog]

Well the powdercoater informed me last week I had a small crack in the header so I have to get that welded up. My welder must have missed it when he installed the front bung. Also Hammer has the heads right now and with it being Spring they are a bit behind. So it will be several more weeks. Along the way I have been installing handlebar risers, heated grips, shift light, voltage gauge, new fan, new belt, made a couple more mufflers to play with. I have been busy! LOL

I might completely revamp my fuel maps as well to use the unused portion. If I get time I will play around with it.

Still undecided on the XB9 chain. I ran it on my last setup and enjoyed it. If I don't get the acceleration I want with the 1250 kit then I will throw on the XB9 chain for better acceleration.

Brett

[lawdog]

What difference did you notice with the crank? Better acceleration? As in higher rpms faster or better pull down low? Did you do it all the work at once? How did you tell the difference between the crank effects vs increased bore vs increased engine efficiency?

You are so right on tuning! So many people shy away from tuning but it is the biggest improvement! Even just shutting off closed loop and running a richer AFR will net you nice gains. Of course tuning it properly with a wideband is where it is at. I use a ZT2 and datalog with a Palm Pilot. Adjust my maps by hand using an excel speadsheet. Old school but works.

[Chicknstripn]

I'm gun shy with the tuning. It's a confusing world for me. I tried data logging but my laptop doesn't like riding in a backpack.
The crank is a ton smoother and spins up faster. I believe that has transformed the engine characteristics of the bike. It was the first big difference I noticed when I was breaking in the engine after the rebuild. It was just so smooth. Well, from what a Buell xb feels like stock.
I'm sure I have more pull down low and it certainly pulls harder up top.
That's where I really feel the head work cams and 1250 kit have made a difference.
However, I as stated before, I'm probably not getting everything I can out of my build. And that's due to my lack of tuning expertise.
I did all the work at one time. And I knew the tuning would be my biggest obstacle. I've owned the bike since it was brand new. I'll never get rid of it so it will always be a work in progress.
My advise to anyone wanting more power from their bike is to exhaust all the less expensive bolt on options, such as intake exhaust and fuel injection tuning before jumping straight to a big bore kit.
I might be running 10hp more than I was with the stock components. It's hard to tell without back to back dyno runs.
Anyway, any competent tuner can probably accomplish the same feat.
The problem with Buells is the fact that if you can't tune the bike yourself... Good luck finding someone that can.
Lawdog- I've seen your name attached to several threads and from what I've read it seems like you know a thing or two about tuning. So I'm sure you'll see great results from your build.
For me the results have been meh. Especially when I think about the amount of money I dumped into my bike.
Little things will add up quick!

[lawdog]

For tuning you need a wideband to read the AFR. A datalogger to record the data. Software to view, manipulate, and understand the data in your computer. And a way to write changes to the ECM.

I use a ZT2 wideband with a Palm Pilot and Datalogger software. I convert the logs with ZTPViewer and analyze with Winlogview. I then make changes in an Excel spreadsheet and upload the changes to the ECM. My way is honestly old school compared to Ecmspy or the work Mike did with Tunerpro. There are many newer, better programs for logging and analyzing the data but what I have works and is free!

I have written a ton of stuff on here about tuning. It is not all that user friendly but you either pay for someone to tune it, pay for mail order ECM from EBR, Ecmspy, or Tunerpro.

I was running out of fueling just with bolt-ons so I had to upgrade to a higher psi fuel pressure regulator for more fuel volume. So I will be back to square one with my tune. I also had the fuel injectors cleaned so that should make a difference as well.

Once I get the cams, heads, and bore kit I will start a new thread and quit hijacking this one! haha

Brett

[Chicknstripn]

Well, the original post did ask for opinions from experiance.....
I have to start researching the ZT2 set up. That's definitely my next big move to make the bike better!

[cjmech]

All good and very relavent info so i dont mind!!

Thanks for everyones input so far.

I Installed the 1250 kit over the weekend, rebuilt the heads and installed the new clutch. Re-wrapped the header with a titanium heat wrap as well. Tonight the new fuel pump, FPR and filter will be installed and then hopefully tomorrow with be my first ride since tearing it down. I fired it up last night and it sounds mean with the extra compression, my fuel pump is weak so I dont want to ride it till the new one is in.

Next will be the tuning......

[Bullettooth023]

Mine is going back together Friday. Hoping to have it on the dyno by the middle of the week

[Chicknstripn]

Another tip I should have mentioned is to make sure your timing is set correctly. I did the "scribe line" method mentioned in the service manual when I disassembled the motor. I made sure the stock position of the timing plate was a baseline for the rebuild.
I could not get confident results setting the static timing with the method from service manual. Therefore, I combined a method that had been suggested on different posts by several competent Buellers:
I did the following after putting the bike on a stand, putting the transmission in 5th gear and removing the timing inspection plug. Also it's a good idea to use a rubber band or zip tie to insure the front brake is applied. This insures the bike doesn't move forward. These engines can be difficult to manually rotate.
I pulled the front spark plug and rotated the engine until I saw the timing mark centered in the inspection window. I then used a thin plastic wire to measure the distance from the top of the spark plug hole to the top of the piston. When I was confident I had manually found TPC(for the front cylinder), with the flywheel timing marks perfectly centered in the inspection window, I turned the key on and flipped the kill switch to run. DO NOT THUMB THE STARTER!!!! I then turned the timing plate clockwise until I heard the fuel pump prime. Your set up my require you to move the timing plate counter clockwise.
I then hooked the bike up to ECMspy and checked that my static timing was correct.
AND according to the service manual and ECMspy I set my static timing perfectly.
By just using the method in the service manual I could not produce confident results. Doing it this way I was absolutely confident that my timing was correct.
I actually had to advance my timing about 1 degree from the stock position for my cams. I'm sure other bikes, other builds will be different.
Hope this helps anyone having issues setting the timing on a new build.

[coronadomarine09]

Lawdog where did you get your fuel pressure regulator from?
I have done a similar build like yours but from NRHS Stage two head work Intake is 1.9 exhaust is 1.7
1250 bolt on kit. Stage 3 cams, open air box with K&N Filter and xb9 primary sprocket on my xb12 engine.

[Mattm67]

Lawdog how did your build tune go? I have a 04 xb12r and motor comes back from Hammer tomorrow. we did 1250 kit(30 degree domed 10.5:1)RS605/591 cams,crush head work(7mm) with 1.9intakes and 1.6 exhaust, a set of their pushrods10.676x065x3/8intake and 10.730exhaust. I am kinda stressing over the tuning. i talked to tim from ids and in his experience i need to get it on a dyno and tune it. im guessing id have to do a dyno breakin as well. any advice or thoughts ?

[Subarubrat]

I have a fairly similar engine build (just a bit more aggressive) and had gotten the tune acceptable on my own, but not perfect. When I did my engine build, I installed the race tune and upped it by 10% on fuel across the board. I did break in per Hammer's instructions and then started making more specific changes. If you do the same you should be ok. Recently, I bought a Tunabuell from the guy who does the Buelltooth interface and am working through that process now. The only glitch is that for some reason my droid tablet will run for a min or two and quit logging so I am on hold until I get a chance to grab a new tablet this weekend and get back to tuning. The kit installs easily and gathers data from it's wideband 02 sensor and rolls up that data into a log that is sent back to the tuner, he makes map adjustments and sends you an updated tune. This is pretty much the tuning solution we have been waiting on.

https://www.buelltooth.com/tunabuell.html

[vicenzajay]

I have a fairly similar engine build (just a bit more aggressive) and had gotten the tune acceptable on my own, but not perfect. When I did my engine build, I installed the race tune and upped it by 10% on fuel across the board. I did break in per Hammer's instructions and then started making more specific changes. If you do the same you should be ok. Recently, I bought a Tunabuell from the guy who does the Buelltooth interface and am working through that process now. The only glitch is that for some reason my droid tablet will run for a min or two and quit logging so I am on hold until I get a chance to grab a new tablet this weekend and get back to tuning. The kit installs easily and gathers data from it's wideband 02 sensor and rolls up that data into a log that is sent back to the tuner, he makes map adjustments and sends you an updated tune. This is pretty much the tuning solution we have been waiting on.

https://www.buelltooth.com/tunabuell.html


Subarubrat....very interested in your progress. I'm considering a similar upgrade, but there are *no* dyno tuners close with whom to take care of the engine.

Did you do cam work as well? Head work?

[marcel]

I have a fairly similar engine build (just a bit more aggressive) and had gotten the tune acceptable on my own, but not perfect. When I did my engine build, I installed the race tune and upped it by 10% on fuel across the board. I did break in per Hammer's instructions and then started making more specific changes. If you do the same you should be ok. Recently, I bought a Tunabuell from the guy who does the Buelltooth interface and am working through that process now. The only glitch is that for some reason my droid tablet will run for a min or two and quit logging so I am on hold until I get a chance to grab a new tablet this weekend and get back to tuning. The kit installs easily and gathers data from it's wideband 02 sensor and rolls up that data into a log that is sent back to the tuner, he makes map adjustments and sends you an updated tune. This is pretty much the tuning solution we have been waiting on.

https://www.buelltooth.com/tunabuell.html



Please tell us your experience with this setup. How to install (especially the wideband sensor) communication with tuner and of course, does the bike run better afterwards!!

[lawdog]

A quick update from the undead. I parked the bike for several years as I got sidetracked with family. I am getting back into it now and start riding again. After the big bore kit I still didn't have enough fuel. I upgraded the fuel pressure regulator but still ran lean at WOT above 4k with the injectors maxed out. I just installed larger injectors and will completely redo my map over the next several months. Also plan on running dual wideband so I don't have to switch back and forth and save time. I don't ride much so it may take me a while.

[Cooter]

Should be no reason to have to swap sensors.
Once your single wideband sensor is installed, it should be able to datalog for your tuning (while you will be in OPEN loop) and also run as a narrowband sensor for those times you are testing your tune in closed loop.

The only reason to use a front O2 is if you want to build a separate map for your front cylinder.

[lawdog]

On my 09 XB12R I run a front O2 with DDFI-3 ECM controlling the front cyl in closed loop (like the 2010 models). However I tune a little bit different. I use a standalone wideband, ZT-2, to datalog. I lock out the AFV to 100, turn off closed loop learn, and swap WB/NB O2 sensors around front and rear cylinders. I tune each cylinder independently. Once done turn closed loop back on and reinstall NB sensors. Now that I am getting back into it I may do things a little differently. I may feed the wideband data into the ECM and datalog from the ECM (instead of feeding data from the ECM to the wideband and logging the wideband). I need to play around with ECMSpy and Megalogviewer and see what options they have. If I don't like it I may just keep using ZT-2, Winlog, and ECMRead which is my current setup. I have been out of the game for a few years so programs may be updated and different from what I am use to. What do you use?

[mike lowary]

I use ecmspy and mlv.

[Cooter]

Nothings really changed in the Buell tuning landscape since ECMSpy, and frankly why would it? No need for any updates, we're just getting older:sorrow:

The Buell ECM can't use (and will ignore) WB data, but it will 'pass-through' that info (un-modified) for datalogging. You're in OL (AFV locked to 100*) so WB/NB sensor won't matter to the ECM.

You can install a WB O2 (rear/front/both/whatever) and datalog into ECMSpy, TunerPro, whatever-you-like and if you aren't done tuning and need to ride the bike in closed loop, the WB sensor controller should be able to emulate a NB sensor for that reason, without the need to change sensors. I'd be worried the NB sensor calibration could change (relative to the WB) after rattling around in a tool box between tuning sessions, skewing your data inputs.

*Cheating OL buy locking the AFV should be OK (with CLL off) but make sure it's still not affecting the EGO. Because CL in the ECM is technically still "on".

Since you tuned it already, you should be able to enable CLL, release the noose on AFV and just ride it, forever, so why the need to "tune" it again? Are you just messing around? Trying to fix something:confused:

[lawdog]

A little of both Cooter. My initial tune from way back was quick and easy. Ran OL across the board around 13.8 AFR, fatten up WOT to 13 AFR, lean out decel range to reduce the exhaust pops, and never ran CL. Set the AFV to 100, O2 sensor activation and test to 8000, etc. Never did end up tuning for CL operation. Family life pulled me in different directions and bike went into storage. But I just installed new injectors last week and reset my map. This time around I want to dial in my CL so I can run CL for more economy. Its the 1250 Hammer 110+ HP kit.

[mike lowary]

What cams you running

[lawdog]

Redshift (https://www.zippersperformance.com/red-shift-585-591-xb-cam-conversion/) 585 intake / 591 exhaust on my cores. What setup do you have?

[mike lowary]

I had Redshift 585s last year. I’ll be running Redshift 605/591s with altered cam timing on this build. I’ve heard of the 585s and the 605/591s but never 585/591. You sure you don’t have the 605/591s?

[34nineteen]

"altered cam timing" LOL.

[mike lowary]

I had Zippers retard the intake lobe 4 degrees and advance the exhaust lobe 4 degrees.

[lawdog]

It is the 585/591 cam. Here is the link (https://www.zippersperformance.com/red-shift-585-591-xb-cam-conversion/). Recommended by Hammer.

[mike lowary]

Nice! That thing should rip pretty good

[mike lowary]

Aaron Wilson at Hammer said I have the equivalent of a 110+ hp package for the 9 motor. I’m thinking I mite be closer to 115 but we will see. Setting the redline at 8400. Engine parts arrive tomorrow. I’m getting close.

[lawdog]

Impressive. Even before the big bore kit the bike was fun. I am excited to get back into riding. I haven't ridden in 5 years so it will be months before I will even know the true potential. I will need some seat time and parking lot practice to get comfortable again and hone my perished skills. I know everyone says don't waste money on an XB upgrade when you can run a 1125 but the XB just has soul and character. Its hard to deny the thump of the V-twin or arm ripping torque. Puts a smile on your face every time (and a dent in your wallet). LOL

[Cooter]

Agree totally. It's much more than just a Hp spec. The XB, 1125, and 1190 are completely different animals!

[mike lowary]

At this point, I don’t see me owning a Buell that’s not air/oil cooled. The platform is so clean. Less is more. The XBs and Tube frames check all the right boxes for me.

[Outlaw]

👍🇺🇲

[34nineteen]

Hell yeah brother!

You do have to ride a 1125 someday. While I prefer the aircooled platform, the watercooled ones are pretty amazing.

1125’s are too fast for me, even stock. I can’t imagine an 1190!

[Outlaw]

It's true. I have 2 xbs , 1 m2 and an 09 CR. The CR is a totally different beast. The power band is ridiculous. I still prefer the M2. Comfortable and predictable.

[lawdog]

Do you find the CR (or an 1190) is hard to ride legally or on public roads? As in you always feel like it wants to be unleashed and bam you are hitting speed limits and/or traffic? Feel like you are neutered. One of the reasons why I enjoy the XB so much is all that torque down low. Pulls like a monster up to freeway speeds. It's fun! I always wonder if the water cooled engines when you hit freeway speeds and bam you are in the powerband if it wants to climb to triple digits. You have to restrain yourself to avoid jail time. The older I get the less interest I have in triple digits.

[outthere]

Can't even use what the XB12 has at the track let alone another 80hp. Drag strip may be a different story.

[Cooter]

Depends on the track. On an XB, you'd get run over at Big Willow (because it has a long straight) lol.

I don't find the 1190 to be hard to ride on the street? Same big torque down low makes them very easy to manipulate at legal speeds. If you mean personal restraint then yes, totally, VERY difficult:)

Ironically we were just riding the SR-S and SR-F Zeros for the last couple days and they're even worse! 60-110mph in the blink of an eye! (allegedly). But only got about 76 miles range:( And sweated the last 40 miles home the 405! Sorry not for me.

15134

[TheWood]

The older I get the less interest I have in triple digits.
I hear you there brother. There's a good reason for age classes in a lot of competitive sports. It sucks getting old, but bikes help keep us young at heart. I'm perfectly content living the thrill vicariously watching my son-in-law blast around the track, and occasional pic.'s & stories from forum members here(Cooter and others). Carpe Diem.

[34nineteen]

Do you find the CR (or an 1190) is hard to ride legally or on public roads? As in you always feel like it wants to be unleashed and bam you are hitting speed limits and/or traffic? Feel like you are neutered. One of the reasons why I enjoy the XB so much is all that torque down low. Pulls like a monster up to freeway speeds. It's fun! I always wonder if the water cooled engines when you hit freeway speeds and bam you are in the powerband if it wants to climb to triple digits. You have to restrain yourself to avoid jail time. The older I get the less interest I have in triple digits.

The 1125's always felt happiest when you started to get over 60-70mph. They'll easily run with the XB to that point, but beyond that they really get into their element.

Like you, I'm not interested in triple digits either. I like the "attitude" of an XB, even if a hot 600cc sport bike will embarrass it.

[34nineteen]

I don't find the 1190 to be hard to ride on the street? Same big torque down low makes them very easy to manipulate at legal speeds. If you mean personal restraint then yes, totally, VERY difficult:)

Whats your take on the 1125 vs the 1190? I've heard the 1190 was more refined and friendlier at lower speeds, but the 1125's always felt better at higher speeds. I'm not saying a 1125 feels bad at lower speeds, but really seemed to be happiest when you get at or above highway speeds.

[Cooter]

Whats your take on the 1125 vs the 1190? I've heard the 1190 was more refined and friendlier at lower speeds, but the 1125's always felt better at higher speeds. I'm not saying a 1125 feels bad at lower speeds, but really seemed to be happiest when you get at or above highway speeds.

It's a different planet.
If you want to go 60mph, why buy a bike that can get there in 2.6 seconds?
https://www.zeroto60times.com/vehicle-make/ebr-0-60-mph-times/

I would put a $20 44t sprocket on it if thats what you do. They do suffer the same owner induced problems though. V-Twin or not, they are NOT meant to lug around like a H-D based product at 3500rpm and suffer chain/sprocket issues because people buy them and don't understand what Erik meant when he said it is "a legitimate race engine":(


Hey Fabio, I'm surprised you still have exhaust on those? Grab a sawzall and unleash the 12-less-than-a-stock-XB horsepower! LOL I wanna see a TPEHAK and Fabio-Driven fight to the death!:angel:

[34nineteen]

Hey old man, shut the eff up. I hope you burn your leg on that dumb looking Yoshimura XR1200 pipe. What the hell is wrong with you?

your pal,

34:19

[34nineteen]

It's a different planet. :

Do 1190's use DDFI-3 injection?

[Cooter]

Do 1190's use DDFI-3 injection?

Sort of. They have a different Baud rate like the old legit Buell race ECM's (not the stamped street ones) and there isn't enough of them out there for someone smarter than me to jail break them for the masses. It's a simple issue of a key code, but the peeps that have them have the "Free Buell Maps" debacle fresh in their memory and won't give them up.

No matter, a "tunable ECM" is cheap enough to buy through the channels that honestly deserve it for their hard work.

[upaero]

Stock fuel pressure regulator puts out 48 psi. Replaced for 58 psi one. Also sent out my injectors to be cleaned.

The FP10153 regulator you listed is the same as stock. If you want 58 PSI (4 bar) the Walbro 135-22 is an option.

[upaero]

A little of both Cooter. My initial tune from way back was quick and easy. Ran OL across the board around 13.8 AFR, fatten up WOT to 13 AFR, lean out decel range to reduce the exhaust pops, and never ran CL. Set the AFV to 100, O2 sensor activation and test to 8000, etc. Never did end up tuning for CL operation. Family life pulled me in different directions and bike went into storage. But I just installed new injectors last week and reset my map. This time around I want to dial in my CL so I can run CL for more economy. Its the 1250 Hammer 110+ HP kit.

Instead of running CL for economy, I suggest changing your AFR targets in the cruise range to about 14.2. If you run CL you run the risk of the ECM leaning everything out.

[mike lowary]

Instead of running CL for economy, I suggest changing your AFR targets in the cruise range to about 14.2. If you run CL you run the risk of the ECM leaning everything out.

I’ve been doing it this way for years. I run open loop only, 13.4:1 for idle, 14:1 for cruise, 13.2:1 for wot. Digital carburetor baby!

[lawdog]

The FP10153 regulator you listed is the same as stock. If you want 58 PSI (4 bar) the Walbro 135-22 is an option.

Nice catch! I don't have my old laptop with all my old information to look this up. Going off what I posted long time ago. Just did a BWB search and saw you were right. I swapped from the FP10153 (3.4 bar) to 135-22 (4 bar). As far as a XL1200... Dump a 100 lbs off that thing so it can handle then we'll talk! Haha. Also I use to run OP all the time as it was easy to map with the WB. But I like to tinker and wanted to see if I can get more mpg out of cruise. I may also play around with the actual CL region and CLL region to match up with my cruising area (XB9 primary swap). I don't know yet. More so for fun then any real benefit. But if I get the CL region dialed in at 14.7 I don't see a reason why it would lean out. I think some guys run into problems when they run the CL region richer (or just do a global map richer correction), which then causes the EGO, and eventually the AFR, to lean out to hit 14.7. But if you run 14.7 in CL the bike won't lean out in OL because the O2 sensor is reading rich (ignoring decel OLL). Of course I talk all this tuning semantics and then in about 2 months when I actually have a free minute without wife and kids pulling me in a million different directions I will probably throw on the WB, do a few runs to tune it all OL, end up running OL forever, and calling it a day. Never bothering with CL and dialing it all in. LOL

[upaero]

Nice catch! I don't have my old laptop with all my old information to look this up. Going off what I posted long time ago. Just did a BWB search and saw you were right. I swapped from the FP10153 (3.4 bar) to 135-22 (4 bar). As far as a XL1200... Dump a 100 lbs off that thing so it can handle then we'll talk! Haha. Also I use to run OP all the time as it was easy to map with the WB. But I like to tinker and wanted to see if I can get more mpg out of cruise. I may also play around with the actual CL region and CLL region to match up with my cruising area (XB9 primary swap). I don't know yet. More so for fun then any real benefit. But if I get the CL region dialed in at 14.7 I don't see a reason why it would lean out. I think some guys run into problems when they run the CL region richer (or just do a global map richer correction), which then causes the EGO, and eventually the AFR, to lean out to hit 14.7. But if you run 14.7 in CL the bike won't lean out in OL because the O2 sensor is reading rich (ignoring decel OLL). Of course I talk all this tuning semantics and then in about 2 months when I actually have a free minute without wife and kids pulling me in a million different directions I will probably throw on the WB, do a few runs to tune it all OL, end up running OL forever, and calling it a day. Never bothering with CL and dialing it all in. LOL

Why tune to 14.7 to accommodate a narrow band O2 sensor? It will run cooler and have better throttle response at about 14.2. Plus, those sensors are not the most trust worthy. I only keep the O2 sensor active to sense and report a lean condition with a CEL in the event something mechanically goes south. In CL the ECM will just compensate for a problem without you knowing about it (with the factory CL settings anyway). Add a baro sensor for air pressure compensation. Using a NB O2 sensor for sensing elevation is a terrible idea. You have intake air and engine temp sensors to adjust for temperature. What else would the ECM be able to (and need to) adjust for in CL?

This is an interesting write up, even though it's about Harleys: https://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-07.html

[mike lowary]

Why tune to 14.7 to accommodate a narrow band O2 sensor? It will run cooler and have better throttle response at about 14.2. Plus, those sensors are not the most trust worthy. I only keep the O2 sensor active to sense and report a lean condition with a CEL in the event something mechanically goes south. In CL the ECM will just compensate for a problem without you knowing about it (with the factory CL settings anyway). Add a baro sensor for air pressure compensation. Using a NB O2 sensor for sensing elevation is a terrible idea. You have intake air and engine temp sensors to adjust for temperature. What else would the ECM be able to (and need to) adjust for in CL?

This is an interesting write up, even though it's about Harleys: https://www.drdyno.com/AIM_2010-07.html

A lot of people disagree with you on this. Makes sense to me though.

[outthere]

I've been running open loop for a few years using wideband O2 sensor and never an issue. AFV set to 103. Bike not street ridden though.

[34nineteen]

I can see why more knowledgeable riders like upaero and outthere run their bikes that way. They appear to both be extremely knowledgeable and well versed in the operation of their bikes and able to troubleshoot and resolve problems if and when they arise.

For the rest of us, myself included, running like that is like giving a machine gun to a monkey. I can figure out *most* but not all issues on my own, but even I know that I can easily get in the weeds when given too much control over the tuning. I know just enough to be dangerous, and would need a lot of patience and hand holding if I ran my bike in that configuration. Pre-canned tunes are best for me.

YMMV. Just my $0.02.

On another note....hey outthere, what exhaust is that? It looks like you married a Force to a SS Drummer? I like it!

[mike lowary]

I've been running open loop for a few years using wideband O2 sensor and never an issue. AFV set to 103. Bike not street ridden though.

Mike check this out. Shaved 4.5 lbs off the drivetrain with this setup. You need it.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51073261658_40484a3f81.jpg

[Cooter]

Primary Porn:cool:

[lawdog]

Did you guys change your timing at all from stock? I have left mine stock but Hammer Performance (http://www.hammerperf.com/ttinstallkit.shtml#faq) suggested Harley stock maps may be too aggressive for the big bore kits due to the higher compression.

[cvc]

Mike check this out. Shaved 4.5 lbs off the drivetrain with this setup. You need it.

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/51073261658_40484a3f81.jpg

What primary is that? And do the do multiple ratios?

[mike lowary]

Did you guys change your timing at all from stock? I have left mine stock but Hammer Performance (http://www.hammerperf.com/ttinstallkit.shtml#faq) suggested Harley stock maps may be too aggressive for the big bore kits due to the higher compression.

Yes the ignition timing maps were changed. The stock and race timing maps are ok up to a certain point. What’s your compression ratio now? Did you get the 30 degree reverse dome pistons?

[cvc]

Should have blown up the pic before asking. That’s what I get for looking at stuff on my phone.

[mike lowary]

What primary is that? And do the do multiple ratios?

Evolution industries billet clutch assembly and engine sprocket. As far as ratios go, they make engine sprockets with many different tooth counts. You can go up or down one tooth on the engine sprocket and still use the stock primary chain.

[lawdog]

Yes the ignition timing maps were changed. The stock and race timing maps are ok up to a certain point. What’s your compression ratio now? Did you get the 30 degree reverse dome pistons?

I am running the stock timing map right now. Looking through old posts it looks like I played around with timing about 10 years ago, wasn't satisfied with any changes I made or the race timing maps, and went back to stock. I have the 30 degree reverse dome pistons with a target compression ratio of 10.5:1. I have never actually measured it.

[mike lowary]

I am running the stock timing map right now. Looking through old posts it looks like I played around with timing about 10 years ago, wasn't satisfied with any changes I made or the race timing maps, and went back to stock. I have the 30 degree reverse dome pistons with a target compression ratio of 10.5:1. I have never actually measured it.

Several factors come into play with this. Raising compression, 30 degree combustion chamber, and getting the squish band dialed in. All of these things require less timing to make power. Especially the 30 degree chambers and squish band. The 10.5:1 compression isn’t really high enough to make such a difference. In my case it would because I’m at almost 12:1. I could whip you up a better base timing map if you like. Let me know. What year is your 12?

[lawdog]

2009 XB12R with BUEZD

[outthere]

I do like that primary set-up. The Norton could have used something like that.

Running open-loop still lets the ECM correct for lean conditions. I seem to help bottom power more than anything. The bike pulls a well-running open loop.

That is Force/Drummer combination. It Fits Dean's muffler also but it's in a bit of a bind so I'll give this a go this year.15205

[upaero]

Running open-loop still lets the ECM correct for lean conditions. I seem to help bottom power more than anything. The bike pulls a well-running open loop.15205

Actually, in open loop the ECM will not correct for a lean or rich condition. However, the O2 sensor can still be active to inform you about sensed lean condition with a CEL. That way you can do something to fix the problem instead of having the ECM try to compensate for it without you knowing.

[outthere]

^^^^^always learning