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View Full Version : Is an 1190 SX upgrade from 2008 XB9SX a good choice?



CRSole
04-16-2018, 09:26 PM
I only got my 2008 Buell XB9SX CityX a couple of months ago and I love the bike (I've been eyeing up these XB bikes for about 2 years). In my research I find that the EBR bikes would be a logical upgrade from the XB. However with more reading I find that EBR bikes are very rare as they weren't produced as long so I am considering trading my XB for one. Is this wise? The EBR 1190SX I am considering looks to have been dropped once but not while moving and it has about 9K miles. I have to drive a few hundred miles to test drive and it will have to wait a few days for some snow to melt. My XB just rolled 10K miles and is fairly clean but has carbon fiber over the fuel frame pieces so I have no way to know if it was dropped or crashed before me but it doesn't appear so. I've ridden it about 500 miles since I purchased and I just love the bike with its cool streetfighter looks, v-twin torque and racecar sounds but it does pop quite a bit on decel with the jardine exhaust and I do sometimes wish it had just a bit more power and get-up-and go on acceleration (Not that I want to go 100mph but I do wish the XB was quicker on acceleration). My payments for the EBR will about double and my insurance will go up quite a bit into a monthly payment rather than a once per year payment. I'm just having a difficult time deciding if this is a good decision to trade or not. My thoughts are to get the EBR now and get another XB later since they are more plentiful. I mostly just ride about 7 or 8 miles to and from work and do fun under 50 mile rides as much as possible. I can do my own oil changes, pipes, intakes and basic tuning but I wouldn't call myself a very good mechanic. What do you guys think about this trade? What should I look for? Are there big maintenance things I need to be aware of for an EBR? (because my XB is cake). Probably dumb to ask this stuff in an EBR area so maybe I'll post in an XB area as well but I'm hoping to make a more informed decision. Thanks!

Silverrider
04-16-2018, 09:43 PM
Hands down EBR !!! , Go test ride it and it will be a No Brainer !!!! Show us a pic and the price! I have had a few XB9s and a few XB12s and many other super bikes and I love my EBR. Just my thoughts.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/900/41054248511_5096f6a8ab_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/25xPKLT)mad max_011 (https://flic.kr/p/25xPKLT) by Jack Joseph (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156119726@N06/), on Flickr

Cooter
04-16-2018, 09:45 PM
I also have both and they are completely different bikes. The question is much more about you the rider, and not the bike. You are doubling your horsepower. It is comparing a fast hatchback to a Bugatti Veyron. No kidding. You want 100mph? Thats second gear. And under 5 seconds:
https://www.erikbuellracing.com/1190blacklightning

As far as parts and service. It's easy and the same question has been asked by everyone looking at one. EBR is still a company and will support you, they just don't make bikes anymore. Every maintenance part is available aftermarket and not an EBR proprietary part (except maybe the front chain sprocket and thats changing). Lots of parts around and at the dealers too. Valve adjust at 6K miles needs an engine rotate so do it yourself or find a good V-twin shop, theres nothing crazy going on in there that a competent mechanic can't do.

If you enjoy laughing, crying, and pooping yourself at the same time, get the 1190. It will do that for you:eagerness:

CRSole
04-16-2018, 10:05 PM
Thanks! Wow, nice bike Silverrider! They will only give me $2500 for my XB and they want under $8K for the EBR. I am a 3-event barefoot waterskier so yeah, I do like speed and the adrenaline rush of power and speed. I find that I mostly like the acceleration; I'm not really fond of going 100MPH. I was just really fascinated with Eric Buell's story, engineering and the XB9SX. Research shows that it really looks like finding an EBR is going to be more and more difficult, maybe impossible soon--am I way off on that? The timing is just bad because I just bought the XB. It'd be better to wait a year...but my thoughts are it'll be too late. XB's seem more plentiful.

CRSole
04-16-2018, 10:17 PM
9574
9575
9576
9577
9578

Here's some pictures of it. Price seems low but I'm guessing the drop is why. There is $100 plastic part, left side plastic fairing, that needs replacement I guess (can see on some of the photos). No idea on whether all maintenance has been completed. Dealers never seem to know that stuff on used bikes despite being asked the questions.

CRSole
04-16-2018, 10:23 PM
Silverrider, what exhaust is that on your black bike? Is it expensive? (dumb question) I like how it's underneath like on the XB rather than up the side. Really love the blacked out looks--is there really a better color for a bike?

CRSole
04-16-2018, 10:27 PM
Ah I also see the EBR is chain drive. That means a bit more maintenance but I have to do that on my dual sport bikes already. I suspect with all that power though that the chain needs to be checked and possibly changed every so often?

CRSole
04-16-2018, 10:47 PM
Good stuff! Thank you. Does under $8k seem low for a 2015 ebr 1190sx with 9k miles? I think kbb books them at like $10,555.

wickedchop
04-16-2018, 11:01 PM
^^^^^^ 8 grand w 9000 miles seems way high to me. Weren't they selling EBR's new for that price a little while ago????

CRSole
04-16-2018, 11:08 PM
^^^^^^ 8 grand w 9000 miles seems way high to me. Weren't they selling EBR's new for that price a little while ago????

Not according to book value of $10,555, of course there's nothing about adjustment for mileage:

https://www.kbb.com/motorcycles/ebr/1190sx/2015/?pricetype=retail

wickedchop
04-16-2018, 11:30 PM
^^^^^^^ told ya!

CRSole
04-16-2018, 11:55 PM
Um there were upgrades in 2015. One year newer will cost more regardless. Book value is $10,555. Sure a rare deal off craigslist comes along but i haven't seen any that low.

wickedchop
04-17-2018, 12:04 AM
Upgrades????? Didn't you say your not fond of going 100mph???? The damn bike makes 185hp!!!! Sh!t, I got $500 cash for anybody on here that can out ride that machines capability on the track. I know my old ass couldn't out ride that beast no matter what yr!

Silverrider
04-17-2018, 12:08 AM
Upgrades????? Didn't you say your not fond of going 100mph???? The damn bike makes 185hp!!!! Sh!t, I got $500 cash for anybody on here that can out ride that machines capability on the track.
174.29 with a tune & pipe :applause:
9581

wickedchop
04-17-2018, 12:19 AM
Silver, if crsole can rip off a 1:19 lap at NJMP Thunderbolt course on the EBR 1190 with the chicane and not the dog leg I'll be waiting at pit out for him with $500 cash since he is so worried about upgrades!

CRSole
04-17-2018, 12:54 AM
Ease up there gentleman or I'm likely to work on a challenge like that and hurt myself trying! Just kidding. I just started riding 2 years ago and the xb is my first sport bike. I just want faster acceleration, not necessarily high speeds. I ride on city streets downtown, maybe 3 miles of interstate and a couple miles of city streets. No place for 100 mph. A commute. That's it mostly, but I want more acceleration and I assume stock exhaust doesn't let me hear the vtwin like my harley. Plus i dont like that pipe up on one side.

It's really too soon to do this upgrade but I just know I'll want an ebr in a year and they are getting scarce. I've looked. This one's through a dealer so i can trade. I'm losing $1k in trade but what option will i have if i cannot get an ebr in a year? Get a ducati or rice rocket? Not my style; just dont like that path.

Cooter
04-17-2018, 02:16 AM
You will be able to find an EBR in a year, no rush. Probably even a 0 mile brand new one. I had my brand new 2014 delivered to my door for under $8k. There were only very minor changes between 2014 and 2017, easily changed if you wish.

The 'exhaust on the side' isn't. It's a resonator, and can be removed. The muffler is still underneath like an XB or 1125. Search "EBR Tips mod". It sounds like you need to do a bunch of googling anyway, all your questions are pretty common.

If you've only been riding for 2 years, I would highly recommend a MSF course if you haven't already and also highly recommend a track day session. You will be addicted and it will teach you more about your bike in an afternoon than years of riding on the street.

If you just want a bit more acceleration without the investment:
A XB 12 with XB 9 primary gearing is a fun ride.
You could convert your XB 9 to chain final drive ($200-$300) and gear it lower.
Or look into the 1125's. Approximately the same money as a nice XB, FAST with 146hp, slightly better commuter than a 1190(IMO), and the CR's are just seeeexy. See that guy in my avatar? I've seen him naked:D

Cooter
04-17-2018, 02:21 AM
And wickedchop is so right. The 1190 (like most new hyper sport bikes) is so far beyond what normal humans can actually ride it doesn't even matter.

CRSole
04-17-2018, 03:14 AM
Thanks Cooter. I've read a bunch but I'm sure there's always more to learn. I ask questions to get people talking and learn more.

I'd had two shoulder surgeries and couldn't barefoot waterski aggressively the way I had so I needed a new adrenaline outlet soo... I bought an iron 883 in 2016, learned to ride on my own near my house, took msf course and got my license. Rode that mostly stock for a year. I ride every day i can in temps between 20F and 100F as long as there's no rain, ice or snow. End of 2016 I got convinced by a coworker to buy a dual sport bike, klx250, and started riding gravel roads and an off road ohv park in addition to the city rides and work commuting on the iron883. Bought 2 more dual sport bikes to ride w gf and my son. Gf got license and rides too. Son is taking msf soon. Did stage 1 myself on the iron last year and tuned it--louder and quicker! Not quick enough though and big bore kit costs a lot (esp w heads & cams) but i really thought about it. Also it has no lean angle wo scraping pipe. Was looking for an fxr....still looking. So last May I bought a low rider s because I wanted a quicker bike and something better for 2up riding with my girlfriend. Great bike but heavy. Did a lot of short 2up rides and a few solo rides to work. Bike is awesome but it gets too hot to be stuck in traffic and again, cannot lean too far.

Finally got the Buell xb this year because I was fascinated with Eric Buell and the unique design ideas he has and these bikes are made to lean (gf was not fond of my getting a sport bike at all or I'd have gotten one sooner). I love the naked streetfighter looks on a sport bike and the performance aspects but i don't like the inline 4 jap bikes and ducatis are expensive. Besides I like American bikes. The xb is a super fun bike but doesn't feel much quicker than my iron 883. I've heard the xb12 is more torquey but not really much quicker than the xb9 due to gearing. So i started reading about ebr bikes. The 1190 sx seems to be a logical upgrade. However they are rare with probably only a few thousand in existence. I believe they will become hard to find and sought after soon. I am sentimental about these machines so if I miss the opportunity to enjoy one I'm sure I will be disappointed. Waiting concerns me.

I'm not really interested in track riding, yet lol, and the nearest one is probably
really far away anyway. I just like to accelerate fast and wanna learn to lean and "dance with the bike" as buell puts it. I would also like to ride the curvy Wisconsin roads though sometime with something that can haul ass and lean. Iowa is so flat and straight, it's quite boring imo, except around the rivers but I do enjoy the city riding.

BuellyBagger
04-17-2018, 12:02 PM
Upgrades????? Didn't you say your not fond of going 100mph???? The damn bike makes 185hp!!!! Sh!t, I got $500 cash for anybody on here that can out ride that machines capability on the track. I know my old ass couldn't out ride that beast no matter what yr!

I'll bite! LOL silver can i borrow your bike? :p

Silverrider
04-17-2018, 01:52 PM
I'll bite! LOL silver can i borrow your bike? :p

Any time, you break it you own it, As Cooter says, If you enjoy laughing, crying, and pooping yourself at the same time. Bring a undee change.

CRSole
04-17-2018, 03:32 PM
Any time, you break it you own it, As Cooter says, If you enjoy laughing, crying, and pooping yourself at the same time. Bring a undee change.

Haha you guys are funny! I'm not sure I can even imagine laughing, crying and pooping at the same time. I can certainly imagine more acceleration on a cycle than on the 8 or so I have ridden in the last two years. I'm definitely an adrenaline junkie!

I think you guys have convinced me to hold off on the EBR bike I was considering and look for one with fewer miles and no drop damage :-( It bums me out because I really had my heart set on that gray EBR 1190SX; got financing and the whole works and was ready to drive 4 hours and likely purchase. I felt a bit let down last night...so I rode my XB9SX into work today despite the 25F temperature. Damn I love these cycles! Really fun but yeah I'll definitely want more get up and go. I'm really not interested in modding the crap out of my cool XB just to eak out a few more ponies; it just kinda defeats the purpose of the bike as designed I think. I will try the race map in the ECM when the weather stays above 50F. Seems stupid to mess with mapping in these ever changing temperatures we have (supposed to get 2-4 inches of snow tomorrow? WTF?).

Anyhow perhaps I'll check into other EBR's I can find. Thanks for all the feedback. I know an EBR will be in my future if I can find one.

Silverrider
04-17-2018, 03:52 PM
This question has been asked pretty often. Cross-posting from EBRforum.com:

Strike Yellow 195 (RX-185, SX-10)

Racing Red 287 (RX-206, SX-81)

Galactic Black 241 (RX-228, SX-13)

Frostbite White 167 (RX-0, SX-167)

Laguna Blue 50 (RX-0, SX-50)

Hotrod Argent 51 (RX-21, SX-30)

Gunmetal Gray 13 (RX-0, SX-13)

Red, White, Blue 5 (RX-5, SX-0)

Competition White 10 (RX-10, SX-0)

Midnight Black 52 (RX-12, SX-40)

Total bikes 1071 (RX-667, SX-404)
Worldwide production

CRSole
04-17-2018, 04:01 PM
This question has been asked pretty often. Cross-posting from EBRforum.com:

Strike Yellow 195 (RX-185, SX-10)

Racing Red 287 (RX-206, SX-81)

Galactic Black 241 (RX-228, SX-13)

Frostbite White 167 (RX-0, SX-167)

Laguna Blue 50 (RX-0, SX-50)

Hotrod Argent 51 (RX-21, SX-30)

Gunmetal Gray 13 (RX-0, SX-13)

Red, White, Blue 5 (RX-5, SX-0)

Competition White 10 (RX-10, SX-0)

Midnight Black 52 (RX-12, SX-40)

Total bikes 1071 (RX-667, SX-404)
Worldwide production

That doesn't really seem like a lot of bikes to me. Is waiting a year to look for one a good idea? My thoughts are that when word gets out about the bang-for-the-buck on these, prices will skyrocket.

Silverrider
04-17-2018, 04:07 PM
That doesn't really seem like a lot of bikes to me. Is waiting a year to look for one a good idea? My thoughts are that when word gets out about the bang-for-the-buck on these, prices will skyrocket.

Do what you want follow ur Gut !!! Dont wait a year, but shop around for a better deal. IMO. offer them 6K , maybe 6.5k out the door. They bought it for 5K most likey dropped and all.

CRSole
04-17-2018, 04:13 PM
Do what you want follow ur Gut !!! Dont wait a year, but shop around for a better deal. IMO.

Good advice. I think I better start looking. My gut says, "Find an EBR 1190SX as soon as possible! Can always find another XB9SX since there were over 10K produced".

CRSole
04-17-2018, 04:15 PM
Not sure on the accuracy but I found this about Buell production:

http://daviddreesen.blogspot.com/2015/01/buell-motorcycles-1983-2009.html

wickedchop
04-17-2018, 04:15 PM
I'll bite! LOL silver can i borrow your bike? :p

Buelly same goes for you. If you can crack off a 1:19 lap at my track......you got $500 cash waiting for you at pit out! On an EBR on Thunderbolt course.

CRSole
04-17-2018, 05:14 PM
How about this bike? 800 miles on it and I'm still waiting on details:

https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2014-EBR-1190-SX-5000442202

Cooter
04-17-2018, 06:39 PM
Thats much better. Not many details needed for a stock bike with 600 miles on it.

I love the white:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4792/39727717635_da83b5d3f4_b.jpg

But you can get a grey airbox cover and front trim easily and cheaply if thats your thing:) Ask Silver, he has an extra one I'm sure of it!

BuellyBagger
04-17-2018, 07:13 PM
I have my tire warmers on for you Buelly.

9589

Lol I wouldn't stand a chance fellas. But I'm perdy @ drinkin beer :very_drunk:

CRSole
04-17-2018, 07:36 PM
Haha thanks! I really like the all blacked-out look, but I probably shouldn't count my chickens before they hatch! Hopefully this will all work out. It's about twice as far away, 8 hour drive instead of 4 but peace of mind is worth it. It saddens me to have to trade the new-to-me Buell XB though. I rode it to work today and home for lunch and wow is that thing fun! Like I said earlier, the timing of this is just kinda bad but "...Sometimes you just gotta say what the f@%k Joel". Buell XB's are much more plentiful and if an EBR doesn't passify my need-for-speed addiction, nothing will.

Man I love beer...but my barefoot waterski training kinda hates it right now. I'll likely get back to that after my body takes a few water hits and bruises in a few weeks haha

CRSole
04-17-2018, 07:42 PM
BTW Nice bike there Cooter! I like that airbox protector. Makes her look "spiney" maybe? White kinda looks "storm trooper" to me which is kinda cool.

CRSole
04-17-2018, 07:44 PM
I have my tire warmers on for you Buelly.

9589

Nice bike! She looks warm and cared for! Did you add the red airbox? That's the go-fast color.

Silverrider
04-17-2018, 07:44 PM
Thats much better. Not many details needed for a stock bike with 600 miles on it.

I love the white:
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4792/39727717635_da83b5d3f4_b.jpg

But you can get a grey airbox cover and front trim easily and cheaply if thats your thing:) Ask Silver, he has an extra one I'm sure of it!

Now Thats a sweet bike !!!! I want to see a current Pic!!!!!!! With that NEW loud pipe !!!!

CRSole
04-17-2018, 08:01 PM
You like White , OK then white it is .Bam!!! Its that easy !

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4667/26731660658_b433372980_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/GJbKp1)DSC_1227 (https://flic.kr/p/GJbKp1) by Jack Joseph (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156119726@N06/), on Flickr

Wow that's nice too! My favorite is black. How did you get the blacked out air intake plastic? It's funny that I wasn't as hyped about the look of the 1190SX as much as the XB9SX at first but the more I see of them, the more I like the 1190SX look. I can never look at enough photos of bikes! Got some with you riding it? Hmm, may have to watch more videos of these later.

CRSole
04-17-2018, 08:13 PM
The black is with the colored cover off all of them have the black under the colored cover.

Stealth mode!

:very_drunk: Thank you I'll have another. These little things are truly pretty fascinating to me.

Silverrider
04-17-2018, 08:18 PM
Stealth mode!

:very_drunk: Thank you I'll have another. These little things are truly pretty fascinating to me.


Here we go check out my Red EBR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g907n_s3Joo

CRSole
04-17-2018, 08:20 PM
The black is with the colored cover off all of them have the black under the colored cover.

https://farm1.staticflickr.com/807/26067280357_9bdffbd927_o.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/FHtChe)EBR1 (https://flic.kr/p/FHtChe) by Jack Joseph (https://www.flickr.com/photos/156119726@N06/), on Flickr

Here we go check out my Red EBR https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g907n_s3Joo

Holy $hit! A person could kill themself on one of these! That's impressive. Humpty dumpty just got put back together so I better stay away from attempting wheelies for a while haha:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEAT74rKJM0

MakingPAIN
04-17-2018, 09:05 PM
9590


go get the EBR lol they are soooo fun :up:

wickedchop
04-17-2018, 10:00 PM
Lol I wouldn't stand a chance fellas. But I'm perdy @ drinkin beer :very_drunk:

I wouldn't stand a chance either, that's why I put the reward up.....lol. Josh Hayes owns the track record with a damn near clean 1:20. Had you maniacs ready to kill yourselves for a lousy $500 bucks!

CRSole
04-17-2018, 11:26 PM
9590


go get the EBR lol they are soooo fun :up:

Nice bike! I hope to get an EBR. Waiting for responses. XB rides were fun today! We hit a high of 48F

Cooter
04-17-2018, 11:50 PM
Check the last post....


https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?52531-Parts-for-sale-XB-and-1125/page7

:angel:

CRSole
04-18-2018, 01:25 AM
9590


go get the EBR lol they are soooo fun :up:


Check the last post....


https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?52531-Parts-for-sale-XB-and-1125/page7

:angel:

Oo nice! More temptation! It is an rx tho

CRSole
04-18-2018, 01:33 AM
So i have a question about 2014 1190sx I'm dealing on. Got this explanation:

"I meant to say that the dash has been updated and we replaced the ECU on the bike, making the miles say zero (sorry for that). There are 854 true miles on the bike, and it shows 854 miles on the title...."

Should this concern me? It kinda does a but they said they had like 15 EBR bikes, this is the last one left and this was the bike they took to shows. Seems like something hinky with every situation. However they did say that this bike has never been privately owned and still shows LAP as the owner, the liquidator that took over EBR.

CRSole
04-18-2018, 03:53 AM
9590


go get the EBR lol they are soooo fun :up:


Check the last post....


https://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthread.php?52531-Parts-for-sale-XB-and-1125/page7

:angel:


Did you ask why is the dash and the ECU being replaced? The dash being a 14 should be updated to the lastest firm ware as most of us have had done, But to be changed maybe it was getting a No communication code if so it should be replaced and that would Zero out the miles.
I would just want to know why ?? But no reason not to buy it .

It was a phone conversation where he said that some 2014 models had a defect and didn't increment mileage or something so they replaced the electronics. My concern is it means accurate mileage is basically not available to me; no way to know for certain. Convenient for a dealer but I guess we gotta trust somebody with these things. There's always risks.

I'll ask them again in email and post an answer.

Mope
04-18-2018, 02:48 PM
It was a phone conversation where he said that some 2014 models had a defect and didn't increment mileage or something so they replaced the electronics. My concern is it means accurate mileage is basically not available to me; no way to know for certain. Convenient for a dealer but I guess we gotta trust somebody with these things. There's always risks.

I'll ask them again in email and post an answer.


I've not heard of ANY issues with 2014s not accurately logging miles. The dashes are crap, but that's not what your guy is claiming.
You could follow up with TIM at IDS - he's posted before about the time interval required that they set up for the dash to be mated to the ECM. My guess would be that they swapped in components and missed the time window thus breaking the link between ECM and Dash. The downside here is that your title is going to reflect 'not actual' mileage and that's got implications for resale value.

Mope
04-18-2018, 05:46 PM
Its never been registered still in LAP , as long as the title shows actual mileage and not as Mope said 'not actual'. Here is Tims tim@idspd.com Great guy!!!

I've been out of the loop on federal law for a bit, but historically, if you sell a vehicle whose mileage is known to be different than the dash (odometer fraud) and don't report that on the title, it's a felony (I believe) and the punishments are steep!

CRSole
04-18-2018, 07:24 PM
I'll have to mention about checking the law about that. It has never had an owner, just LAP.

I asked them to find out the reasoning for the ECU replacement. I also asked if they could write the reasoning up, sign it and provide at time of sale. This should be explanation enough for a future buyer...not there would be one for a very, very long time if ever.

Cooter
04-18-2018, 07:38 PM
Unless the title is branded "not actual mileage" I wouldn't be concerned at all.

It is a good bargaining point to buy it from the dealer cheaper though! Maybe negotiate a service agreement?
Too bad you don't have cash for the upgrade, and be able to get one from a private party. You would save so much $$...

CRSole
04-18-2018, 08:07 PM
Unless the title is branded "not actual mileage" I wouldn't be concerned at all.

It is a good bargaining point to buy it from the dealer cheaper though! Maybe negotiate a service agreement?
Too bad you don't have cash for the upgrade, and be able to get one from a private party. You would save so much $$...

Yep that was my thoughts about bargaining too. True, I am not the wisest about motorcycle purchases, but then when is it truly ever wise anyway? Haha

I've had 3 major surgeries in 4 years (which got me this interest), lost 3 friends in 2 years and last friend died suddenly of a heart attack (he rode a tricked out HD 48, R6 before that and still rode a motocross bike). I think I'm gonna just go for the gusto on this bike thing if I can manage it; cannot take it with me anyway, but damn I will enjoy it now. Maybe it'll go to my son someday and he will enjoy it too, or make some $ from selling it when I'm gone.

Thanks again for all the feedback and advice gentleman. I'll certainly let you know how it goes and post pics if I make it happen.

d_adams
04-18-2018, 11:00 PM
So i have a question about 2014 1190sx I'm dealing on. Got this explanation:

"I meant to say that the dash has been updated and we replaced the ECU on the bike, making the miles say zero (sorry for that). There are 854 true miles on the bike, and it shows 854 miles on the title...."

Should this concern me? It kinda does a but they said they had like 15 EBR bikes, this is the last one left and this was the bike they took to shows. Seems like something hinky with every situation. However they did say that this bike has never been privately owned and still shows LAP as the owner, the liquidator that took over EBR.

Bull****. If the ecm was left in the bike and dash updated, it would have re-paired with the ecm when installed back on the bike and power applied.

If the dash was updated, it will come back as blank or zero miles, so the only way they'd have gotten around that is to replace the ecm as well. Wouldn't matter if it's a stock or race ecm, as long as it was "brand new" out of a box, that's the ONLY way the dash could possibly show zero miles. I had that option on the last RX I rebuilt. Turned out it only had 16xx miles on it, way less than was thought. Had to completely replace the dash and repair the wire harness to bring that one back from the dead, along with a lot of other stuff.

Dealer in question does not know enough about that bike to be considered reliable for information.

34nineteen
04-18-2018, 11:11 PM
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCTsWwC_lbyLdPgGuf-r1ibg/videos?sort=dd&shelf_id=0&view=0

or this


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TzcEPqErSNw

njloco
04-19-2018, 01:27 AM
o.k. so it has 854 true miles on it, that makes it a used bike, doesn't matter that it's never been titled. What would he be saying if it had 3000 miles on it. My 07 SS had 617 miles on it when i bought it from the original owner, does that make it a new bike ? In reality the bike s like new condition but it's still not considered new anymore.

P.S. I think your nuts getting an EBR, go and play with the XB for a year or two first, EBR will still be available because the motorcycle riding public are too ignorant to know what they are, EBR going under is proof of that.

CRSole
04-19-2018, 01:41 AM
Bull****. If the ecm was left in the bike and dash updated, it would have re-paired with the ecm when installed back on the bike and power applied.

If the dash was updated, it will come back as blank or zero miles, so the only way they'd have gotten around that is to replace the ecm as well. Wouldn't matter if it's a stock or race ecm, as long as it was "brand new" out of a box, that's the ONLY way the dash could possibly show zero miles. I had that option on the last RX I rebuilt. Turned out it only had 16xx miles on it, way less than was thought. Had to completely replace the dash and repair the wire harness to bring that one back from the dead, along with a lot of other stuff.

Dealer in question does not know enough about that bike to be considered reliable for information.

So you are thinking they replaced dash and ECU to intentionally 0 out the miles or cover up actual mileage?

I am still awaiting an answer on why the ECU replacement. The salesman didn't know but said he'd find out. My experience has been that dealers rarely know much about a bike, car truck or whatever, beyond the sales brochure. They never seem to know anything technical. I'm sure a service tech. that did the work knows something if still there. We'll see. Maybe they'll surprise me.

user_deleted
04-19-2018, 10:56 AM
OMG would you just buy something already! this thread has "tire kicker" written all over it. reads more like the dribble and diatribe typically found on facebook and all other utterly worthless social networking sites. .:mad-new:

Outlaw
04-19-2018, 11:07 AM
Agreed. Buy the EBR . If you have the cash get on with it . Man up.

BuellyBagger
04-19-2018, 12:05 PM
BOOM goes the dynamite. I think I'll buy an ebr too lol

No wait, maybe not:confused:

rchuff
04-19-2018, 02:06 PM
OMG would you just buy something already! this thread has "tire kicker" written all over it. reads more like the dribble and diatribe typically found on facebook and all other utterly worthless social networking sites. .:mad-new:
I knew someone would make me laugh this morning!!! Lol!!!! :up:

Mope
04-19-2018, 02:47 PM
Just so that my comment is clear - I wasn't saying to not get the bike. Rather, you better be getting a hell of a deal on a used bike that legally SHOULD have the title branded 'Not Actual Miles'. Both of these factors (primarily the title) should give you significant power in haggling on the bike.

If they don't want to move on price, let the nice salesman know that you've got the vin number and written communications that the ODO miles aren't actual......if they sell it later without correctly labeling the title they can get a $100,000 fine. That would be a pretty good motivator to get that bike off the lot for most dealers!

TPEHAK
04-19-2018, 03:39 PM
Quick answer is no, it is not good choice.

CRSole
04-19-2018, 07:38 PM
OMG would you just buy something already! this thread has "tire kicker" written all over it. reads more like the dribble and diatribe typically found on facebook and all other utterly worthless social networking sites. .:mad-new:

You know what they say about opinions? Haha :black_eyed:

With all due respect, don't read or respond if you don't like it. I have gotten lots of great information from posting here. "Tire kicker?" Um no. I just bought a Buell XB in February, a low rider s last May, 3 dual sport bikes prior to that and an Iron 883 in 2016. I am an engineer and I would like to make an informed choice so I asked the other experts and owners here. The timing of this is bad for me but I learned the EBR's are rare.

CRSole
04-19-2018, 09:20 PM
What the dealer should do is send the Dash to EBR and have the correct miles installed. Then sell it as a Demo bike.

I agree, because they did tell me it was a demo bike. It seems like most new motorcycles at dealerships are basically demo bikes though. Anyone with a license who says they're serious about buying a bike can come in and basically test ride the crap out of it, and then not buy. I know when I test ride a brand new motorcycle I go easy on it, especially if it hasn't been broken in, but I cannot imagine that most riders take care with a new motorcycle. I did get on the throttle a little bit with the Low Rider S I test rode a year ago, but I didn't feel I abused it at all. Perhaps this is just my limited experiences at only 3 cycle dealerships though...or maybe I just emanate a trustworthy demeanor? Haha no I don't think so.

Outlaw
04-20-2018, 12:42 AM
Not sure what being an engineer has to do with buying a bike but.... do you really need your hand held to make a decision. T-bag is an engineer too. I rec you PM him.

TPEHAK
04-20-2018, 04:56 AM
As an engineer I pay attention to reliability of the product. I did some investigation and found the EBR1190 has some reliability issues. They did not have enough time to refine the product. Buell XB has been produced for longer period of time and Buell had chance to fix some bugs on later XB models.

CRSole
04-20-2018, 02:27 PM
Not sure what being an engineer has to do with buying a bike but.... do you really need your hand held to make a decision. T-bag is an engineer too. I rec you PM him.

This is turning into a teenage-girl-like banter with the negative comments stuff...

An engineer tends to look into things more than most people because we build things and want to know more about how things work. I don't know much about EBR bikes so I came here to learn more to make an informed decision like I said and get a feel for how some other owners have dealt with issues they find. Honestly though, almost anyone who cares about what they are buying might do the same.

I never asked for hand holding and not sure why you would say that. I asked legitimate questions about a motorcycle; not for you to go to the dealer with me. Reasonable questions that came up (not asking now, just reiterating why this can be helpful): How does an EBR compare to an XB? What are some known issues? What does the maintenance look like? Is 9K miles on an EBR high and what issues have people run into? How can and why would mileage be reset on a bike and why might someone replace the display and ECU?

Perhaps I should have just compiled a list of questions and put into one post? I guess I was thinking members liked talking about something they liked so I posted things more informally to initiate dialog to get to know others, maybe see some other cool bikes and how owners customized them.

Even if I don't buy an EBR, isn't this dialog about technical stuff fun for other owners and useful for other potential buyers in the future? Maybe I am in the wrong crowd? Maybe you don't want new people in your group? I never seem to fit in with most groups of people; I think that's another typical engineer trait.

MakingPAIN
04-20-2018, 02:34 PM
Tpehak what your degree in? And I am not an engineer and I look for the same things in a machine. I don’t wrench on bikes for a living but I do wrench on cnc equipment all day. I would have to disagree with your statement on reliability. Yes not perfect but unreliable is not the word.. once again Any 180ish horse v twin will have certain issues. These bikes are running 13.4:1 compression with 60+ degrees timing!!!! As your engineer degree should tell you that is almost pro stock type numbers.. they get one pass per rebuild..

Start comparing apples to Apple.. not ebr to xb

CRSole
04-20-2018, 02:35 PM
maybe you should skip the ebr. it sounds to me like this would be more your style
9601

Is that yours? Not into baggers at all man but that is a cool looking bike, ya know maybe if I was. Kinda looks like one of those big wheel trikes I rode when I was 5 haha. To each his/her own.

I think maybe I don't really fit into any motorcycle "style"? I am a barefoot waterskier who had to find other adrenaline-filled activities due to injuries. I started with an HD because I've always wanted one (ever since seeing Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man), but I quickly found I wanted something faster that could lean more than an Iron and I was fascinated with Eric Buell's story.

Cooter
04-20-2018, 02:42 PM
That’s true. Most engineers live on planet aspergers, but some don’t:sorrow: FWIW, I wouldn’t have guessed you were an engineer, not that it matters:D

If you do your research by asking (the same questions we’ve heard repeatedly) instead of doing your research by reading will need to be able to take some ribbing. Nothing serious, but 8 pages!?!

Most of us Buellers are self-sufficient and are hands on as well. Consider it a right of passage.:angel:

Cooter
04-20-2018, 02:44 PM
You’ll learn about TPEHAK:upset:

Silverrider
04-20-2018, 02:53 PM
Is that yours? Not into baggers at all man but that is a cool looking bike, ya know maybe if I was. Kinda looks like one of those big wheel trikes I rode when I was 5 haha. To each his/her own.

I think maybe I don't really fit into any motorcycle "style"? I am a barefoot waterskier who had to find other adrenaline-filled activities due to injuries. I started with an HD because I've always wanted one (ever since seeing Harley Davidson and the Marlboro Man), but I quickly found I wanted something faster that could lean more than an Iron and I was fascinated with Eric Buell's story.

If you arent getting a EBR , I am kinda leaning in this direction with the ape bar traction grips .LOL
9603

MakingPAIN
04-20-2018, 02:54 PM
Cooter- That’s true. Most engineers live on planet aspergers, but some don’t:sorrow: FWIW, I wouldn’t have guessed you were an engineer, not that it matters:D


haha i didnt strike you as a engineer?, bummer. cover blown.. :upset:

MakingPAIN
04-20-2018, 03:03 PM
M.ENG.SilverRider....

you are now a engineer.. congrats:up:

CRSole
04-20-2018, 04:44 PM
Stoich water-column measurements to decipher injector nozzle PSI serves purpose providing useful knowledge unlike your
rambling incoherent threads which teenage girls love mimicking when they frolic in the crisp fresh autumn leaves of October.
regards,
ich
Vienna, Austria


Says one of the ones adding to the teenage girl banter posts providing no useful information. regards? haha ok bud.

More useless information on the EBR with the odometer issue for anyone interested in the one at Bennett Powersports in Michigan (quotes from the emails I received):

"This bike was taken to SEMA shows by EBR. I purchased this bike from the company who took over EBR and it was bought with a no start issue and an odo disclosure with 854 actual miles. My service department determined the ECM to be the cause and in need of replacement. With a new ECM installed the bike starts runs and drives perfectly."

"1-5-17 the bike was titled@ 854 miles. Bike did not run -ecu changed and bike operates normally. We do have the original ECU that will verify miles when installed on the bike but will not fire up."

"Judging by the miles on the disclosure, odometer and overall condition of the bike it is our expert opinion that the bike had proper break in was taken care of and ridden normally."

"The mileage is stored in the ECU not the dash. The ecu was replaced. The mileage was not reset, that is not something that is legal or even possible. The dash was not replaced but was updated with up to date software which is a normal procedure and does not affect mileage. EBR does not add miles into the ecm, They advised me this could not be done . You stating wiping out miles to make a sale is a serious accusation and something we do not take lightly. It is illegal and something we would never do here. The title will state "not actual miles" We have been in business a long time and are well aware of the laws."

"We have explained mileage of the EBR and we have a disclosure for that. We know the condition of the EBR and feel it reflects the mileage."

Without driving +8 hours, looking at it and driving it I have no way of knowing more but the VIN is 546BBAG25EE.

I pretty much burned my bridge on that possibility to finally get answers. They wanted $8614 out the door days ago, before they even explained the odometer discrepancy. They won't budge on price and got bitchy when I even offered.

I will have to keep looking because they won't sell to me.

Thanks again for the information gentlemen. Haha I guess I'll bug out to avoid more "useless" posts.

gdisaac07
04-20-2018, 06:43 PM
How about this bike? 800 miles on it and I'm still waiting on details:

https://www.cycletrader.com/listing/2014-EBR-1190-SX-5000442202

I bought my bike from them. They're good people. Hammer them on price though. They'll bend.

EDIT: Just read to the end of the thread. That wasn't so nice. They were good to me so idk why it went so badly for you lol

njloco
04-20-2018, 07:28 PM
From your own words, " I just started riding 2 years ago and the xb is my first sport bike. I just want faster acceleration, not necessarily high speeds. I ride on city streets downtown, maybe 3 miles of interstate and a couple miles of city streets "
Am I missing something, your two years is less than equal to most on here that ride in 2-3 months of riding, the guy you flicked off above is one of the most educated on here when it comes to problem solving!

But good luck, your an engineer so you'll figure it out on your own.

Mope
04-20-2018, 09:17 PM
man....tough crowd :cool:

user_deleted
04-20-2018, 09:46 PM
Am I missing something, your two years is less than equal to most on here that ride in 2-3 months of riding, the guy you flicked off above is one of the most educated on here when it comes to problem solving!

But good luck, your an engineer so you'll figure it out on your own.

i haven't been sniped at on here kenny since our beloved FabioDriven was onboard. and as always i appreciate the kind sentiments.
this rambling, braggios, chest-puffing pointless thread seems to have developed a never-ending life of its own. if nothing else it's been mildly entertaining and quite amusing. it should have and could have read as follows and been wrapped up back on the 17th:

shopping for new or lightly used EBR. prefer SX but will settle for RX. good bikes? board members thoughts please. TY
"wonderful bikes....great motors....huge HP and torque....respectable aftermarket support....NO dealer support....appealing aesthetics....reasonably easy to maintain....no teething problems....plenty still available....$7500 will buy a sharp shopper a brand new one.....lightly used averages 20% less.....RX has punishing ergonomics for most....SX more comfortable....in essence the same bike....perimeter front brake sucks. buy one. you won't regret it.

"thanks much John. just bought one and picking it up this weekend. very excited."

TPEHAK
04-20-2018, 09:59 PM
I would wait the new Buell electric motorcycle release. It is even faster and fits city riding range and definitely is going to be more reliable than EBR, and is is also almost maintenance free.

Cooter
04-20-2018, 11:13 PM
Because a brand new Erik Buell engineered thing using brand new tech will be more “dependable” than you feel the EBR is?
You assume a LOT for an engineer.

wickedchop
04-20-2018, 11:37 PM
What in the flying fu@k is going on here????? To the bareback water skier dude. Please don't take offense, I truly don't believe that an EBR 1190 is really the motorcycle for a guy with only two yrs or so seat time, or a guy that doesn't really care to go 100 mph, or a guy that just cruises around town, or a guy that hasn't been on a racetrack. This machine is not a toy, it is a very serious piece of machinery that will get you laid out on a stainless steel table so your family can come identify your remains if you disrespect it. As is the case with the rest of the hypersport machines. Christ, I ride a 1000cc twin superbike on the track regularly and if someone handed me an 1190 rx i would proceed very gingerly with it for the first few laps. My above statements are out of concern and not to be a wiseass, it's your ass man, not mine!

Outlaw
04-21-2018, 12:57 AM
I was using a grinder at work today, modified an exhaust shield on a new Jeep JL. Guess that makes me a machinist, mechanic and an engineer. By the way a like that Road glide but prefer the Street glide. I can't get over the frame mounted fairing. When I turn the bars I need the rest to move with them.

Cooter
04-21-2018, 02:31 AM
Personally I could never look through a windshield on a bike. Maybe I just like bugs in my teeth?:D

TPEHAK
04-21-2018, 02:41 AM
It will be more reliable because of it will be electric motorcycle, is is simpler, less parts.

rchuff
04-21-2018, 01:04 PM
What in the flying fu@k is going on here????? To the bareback water skier dude. Please don't take offense, I truly don't believe that an EBR 1190 is really the motorcycle for a guy with only two yrs or so seat time, or a guy that doesn't really care to go 100 mph, or a guy that just cruises around town, or a guy that hasn't been on a racetrack. This machine is not a toy, it is a very serious piece of machinery that will get you laid out on a stainless steel table so your family can come identify your remains if you disrespect it. As is the case with the rest of the hypersport machines. Christ, I ride a 1000cc twin superbike on the track regularly and if someone handed me an 1190 rx i would proceed very gingerly with it for the first few laps. My above statements are out of concern and not to be a wiseass, it's your ass man, not mine!

Wally hit the nail on the head!! John at least you know who not to help. Some people have NO idea what they are doing. This world is in trouble with people like this guy.

MakingPAIN
04-21-2018, 04:10 PM
What in the flying fu@k is going on here????? To the bareback water skier dude. Please don't take offense, I truly don't believe that an EBR 1190 is really the motorcycle for a guy with only two yrs or so seat time, or a guy that doesn't really care to go 100 mph, or a guy that just cruises around town, or a guy that hasn't been on a racetrack. This machine is not a toy, it is a very serious piece of machinery that will get you laid out on a stainless steel table so your family can come identify your remains if you disrespect it. As is the case with the rest of the hypersport machines. Christ, I ride a 1000cc twin superbike on the track regularly and if someone handed me an 1190 rx i would proceed very gingerly with it for the first few laps. My above statements are out of concern and not to be a wiseass, it's your ass man, not mine!

True I wouldn’t give my EBR to a newer rider with limited miles on a high power bike. These bikes want to be ran ragged, if you putt around it feels like you are hurting the machine. It want to go all the time..

Oh and the front wheel will pull up at 100 with the flick of a wrist in the right gear... my smile grows larger

Silverrider
04-21-2018, 04:42 PM
As Cooter says, If you enjoy laughing, crying, and pooping yourself at the same time.:D:sorrow::mad-new:

qurtrn10
04-22-2018, 12:56 AM
I upgraded from my xb9sl to a 1190SX about two years ago, and have never regretted it. The xb was my first bike and had only been riding for about two years when I upgraded.

user_deleted
04-23-2018, 10:22 AM
Because a brand new Erik Buell engineered thing using brand new tech will be more “dependable” than you feel the EBR is?
You assume a LOT for an engineer.


he's just trolling again shaughn. typical. he never owned an EBR and never will but espousing their reliability or lack thereof. have never run across a buell product owner who seems to hold the brand in such utter contempt as he does. pitiful actually!

TPEHAK
04-23-2018, 01:10 PM
You don't need to own motorcycle to perform research in internet.

gdisaac07
04-23-2018, 04:53 PM
So I'll throw my hand in here on the bike front for a sec. I took my SX out on track yesterday and, despite being very comfortable and competent on the street, felt like I didn't even squeeze 1/10th of the performance that an EBR is capable of. And I've put hundreds of hours of work into my bike. Here's just a taste of what you have to look forward to with this bike.


The ability to go ludicrously deep into corners and hit your apex
Brakes that are significantly more powerful than you'd ever expect (though I am running SBS 856ds pads, which help the bike stop like you put a stick between the spokes). Stoppies on command.
Power wheelies. All the time. Crack the throttle open to 50% in the right gear? Front gets light. Hit a crest at 120 and switch gears up? Front is 1.5 feet in the air.
The gearing with the right sprocket is unbelievable. I did almost the entire track (with the exception of the straights) in 2nd gear. 80mph before braking into a corner in 2nd gear is a thing.
Rear wheel chatter. If you don't rev match perfectly on corner entry, your rear tire will skip and break traction. There is too much torque for mistakes.
Feel. Everywhere. I've upgraded my suspension, so I suppose it's a bit different, but you can feel input constantly.
Noise. With the DA pipe, it's in all likelihood louder than anything else at the track. Louder than a Termi Panigale. Louder than the Aprilia with the SC Project exhaust. It's loud AF.
Everyone is constantly looking at you. Asking about your bike. Talking to you about it. It's an attention magnet.

If these are things you want in your life, get the bike. It's not for the faint of heart. But it's something you will fall in complete and utter love with.

9641

9642

Silverrider
04-23-2018, 06:03 PM
Yes , Looking Good! You have shared with the group the great thrills that only a EBR owner can experience!!

MakingPAIN
04-23-2018, 07:56 PM
https://farm1.staticflickr.com/880/27782084508_8a0d705703_b.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/Jk1rP3)Ebr 1190SX (https://flic.kr/p/Jk1rP3) by Doug D (https://www.flickr.com/photos/153942658@N02/), on Flickr

MakingPAIN
04-23-2018, 07:56 PM
Looks reliable smells reliable feels reliable must be American junk lol

wickedchop
04-23-2018, 09:17 PM
So I'll throw my hand in here on the bike front for a sec. I took my SX out on track yesterday and, despite being very comfortable and competent on the street, felt like I didn't even squeeze 1/10th of the performance that an EBR is capable of. And I've put hundreds of hours of work into my bike. Here's just a taste of what you have to look forward to with this bike.


The ability to go ludicrously deep into corners and hit your apex
Brakes that are significantly more powerful than you'd ever expect (though I am running SBS 856ds pads, which help the bike stop like you put a stick between the spokes). Stoppies on command.
Power wheelies. All the time. Crack the throttle open to 50% in the right gear? Front gets light. Hit a crest at 120 and switch gears up? Front is 1.5 feet in the air.
The gearing with the right sprocket is unbelievable. I did almost the entire track (with the exception of the straights) in 2nd gear. 80mph before braking into a corner in 2nd gear is a thing.
Rear wheel chatter. If you don't rev match perfectly on corner entry, your rear tire will skip and break traction. There is too much torque for mistakes.
Feel. Everywhere. I've upgraded my suspension, so I suppose it's a bit different, but you can feel input constantly.
Noise. With the DA pipe, it's in all likelihood louder than anything else at the track. Louder than a Termi Panigale. Louder than the Aprilia with the SC Project exhaust. It's loud AF.
Everyone is constantly looking at you. Asking about your bike. Talking to you about it. It's an attention magnet.

If these are things you want in your life, get the bike. It's not for the faint of heart. But it's something you will fall in complete and utter love with.

9641

9642

Looks like you were delivering the mail with that back tire.....joking w ya man but don't be afraid to hang off that thing man, it ain't gonna fall over!9663 And if your rear wheel is chattering at the entry cone then your downshifting way to early, stay on the brakes hard and downshift later. Either that or you were in second and shifted into 1st to take the corner, try being in third, grab the brakes at the marker and shift into second at the entry cone and take your corner in second, start rolling the bike up and the throttle on simultaneously as you head for the exit cone then into third again as you drive off towards you next attack point.

Silverrider
04-23-2018, 09:25 PM
9664

how does this look Chop ?

wickedchop
04-23-2018, 09:29 PM
Perfect.....the other guy will figure it out soon enough. Lol

wickedchop
04-23-2018, 10:39 PM
MakingPAIN, your bike looks great but your neighbors drift car dream project SUCKS!

Silverrider
04-23-2018, 10:47 PM
MakingPAIN, your bike looks great but your neighbors drift car dream project SUCKS!

Focus ! on the EBR !!! LOL

MakingPAIN
04-23-2018, 10:53 PM
Hahahha omg that’s great!!!!!!! That car is a clapped out turd!! He blew it up thinking he could put a turbo on it with no tune

Silverrider
04-24-2018, 12:29 AM
^^ ^^^^^ If I didnt know any better that looks like it the wear is from being under inflated tire ???

Outlaw
04-24-2018, 12:35 AM
You tell em lunatic .

TPEHAK
04-24-2018, 01:12 AM
I know that trick

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-J4sHEct8Z88/U5xSM2FHjLI/AAAAAAAAEgg/jvzfA66Yq4I/s1600/nochickstrips1.jpg

Cooter
04-24-2018, 02:34 AM
Lots of guys at the Rock store have knee puck that look like they did that! LOL

wickedchop
04-24-2018, 09:09 AM
NO street rider in 'merica rides further, rides faster or corners harder than i do. and all this on budget-priced Shinkos!
i'll take all comers.

9667

That tire will be fine to go through tech fabio!!!!

njloco
04-24-2018, 07:16 PM
Just keep making right hand turns and curves !

CRSole
07-10-2018, 10:13 PM
10075 Tested and owned. This is gonna be fun!

Silverrider
07-10-2018, 10:16 PM
10075 Tested and owned. This is gonna be fun!

Awesome bike !!!! enjoy it . how many miles?

CRSole
07-10-2018, 10:25 PM
Awesome bike !!!! enjoy it . how many miles?

Thanks I cannot even describe how fun that 8 mile test ride was yesterday! Wow what a beast! 2515.4 miles.

herwawan
07-10-2018, 11:01 PM
Congrats! My next bike for sure, this bike looks freaking cool - and indeed once you drove one, you know it's mean.

CRSole
07-11-2018, 05:24 AM
Congrats! My next bike for sure, this bike looks freaking cool - and indeed once you drove one, you know it's mean.

Thanks! They are quite impressive machines.