ecm required with a slip-on?

[slowxb]

I just bought a 04 xb12r. The bike is just way too quiet for me so I'm thinking about the jardine slip-on. I think I will go with the race ecm but I dont have the money to buy the muffler and ecm at the same time. Will I be ok to run just the jardine for a couple weeks before I get the ecm or will it run too lean?

[LeFox]

if it's just a couple of weeks, wait till you can buy ecm, open airbox & exhaust at the same time ;)

[BuellPartsGuy]

You are supposed to adjust the fuel injection if you modify the performance of the bike at all.

[maybebuell]

on the big twins if you dont change the air filter just the pipes its ok...i would not think buells are different

[BuellPastor]

I've also heard that if I don't change the air box, I will be ok with the stock ecm.

[mrdozer2you]

Yeah you will be fine, if you change the air flow as well as the exhaust then get a new ECM.

[LeFox]

You are supposed to adjust the fuel injection if you modify the performance of the bike at all.
http://www.buellforum.nl/images/smilies/stupid.gif

[BuellPartsGuy]

Sorry I do things properly. Yes, you MAY be able to get away with it, but its not the proper way of doing things.

[BuellPastor]

No need to apologize. Just confusing info here. I want to do things properly too. I want to do what is proper, but also not do things unecessary - so that is the difference: not between proper and improper, but between necessary and not necessary.

[BuellPartsGuy]

I go off of the things that I have at my disposal to give my advise on this

The factory tells you it must be done, and from my experience at the dealers I have worked at, things as simple as changing your spark plugs have had bikes coming back with running issues. Another thing too, if you have to reset and zero the TPS at every service just to help the factory computer keep up with the changing parameters its needs while it wears over time, why wouldnt you need to do some sort of adjustment for putting on some sort of modification? Also wouldnt you want to see the most out of the modification by running it in conjunction with some sort of ECM mod? Yes, it will run, but in a lean condition. Depending on how you ride that could cause problems, maybe not right away but it could. If you want to take chances with your however many thousand dollar investment just to save some money, be my guest. I would rather keep it running in tip top condition and do it properly the first time.


maybebuell - yes on some of the big twins, we have seen that you can get away with it just doing mufflers, but not always on those either. I have had several of the people that "heard from their mechanic/buddie they can run them without a tuner/download". They are the same people that come back a short while later buying a tuner because their bike runs hotter and their new pipes blued up. I am just offering my inside insight to help you out. You can choose whether or not you want to do it with your bike or not, but what I am saying is the way that it is supposed to be done.

[LeFox]

as already mentioned i'm with BPG on this.

from the experience we had here is that the engine does run lean which causes cooling problems.
piston gets warm, fuel gets spayed on it which causes sudden cooling (metal becomes harder) and then, because of the powerfull compression, BANG! a hole in the piston.

[BuellPastor]

As I said on another post, I so much appreciate BPG. You are an incredible resourse. LeFox - your time in answering has really helped. I came on this board just a few weeks ago and I have scrolled through all of the pages of posts and read every single one on exhausts - many several times - and there has been some conflicting information. I also read my owner's manual, spent hours talking to the one Buell guy at the dealership, etc. You guys have both helped tremendously. Thanks again.

[LeFox]

thx, glad to help where i can...;)

[maybebuell]

wasnt drummer exhauste the one that said add his clip on muffler and no need to buy or adjust anything....ride with lots of metric efi bikes and harley efi..thats what the dealers tell them...seems not to be a problem for them....tell ya the truth every efi i seen and raced who added a ecm or some kind of power commander ran to rich realy gained nothing and there gas milage sucked......im sure im not the only one to see this

[BuellPartsGuy]

Some drummer pipes you can get away with running their pipe without tuning it. Check with them first. Since they are just basically a redone stock pipe it is possible.

If you're bike is running rich after installing a tuner, you need to do more tuning. Plus optimum performance is achieved by being slightly on the rich side.

[LeFox]

best air/fuel ratio is 14.7, but if it's power you want your af should be set round 13.5

so yes, performance is running a bit more on the rich side...

see below for a dyno chart of slipon with standard ecm, keeping in mind that the part that really sucks is the rpm rage you are mostly riding in = not good for your engine!
(lower graph = af ratio)
http://www.dragbike.nl/pictures/Pictures2007/tpp/BuellUlystockmap.jpg

[BuellPartsGuy]

Thank you LeFox

[LeFox]

no prob :D

[maybebuell]

i dont see those power numbers with aftermarket ecm and race kits...your making my point

[BuellPartsGuy]

Because they advertise crank horsepower in most ads, not rear wheel corrected horsepower.

[maybebuell]

IM talking dyno runs that are made with upgrade ecm race kits pipes the whole combo. dont get 87 88 hp.....that dyno chart shows 87 88 hp with stock ecm with after market muffler......im using that dyno chart to prove my point...you richen up that dyno run your hp is down..those numbers are as good as one will get with stock motor...and much better them a full race kit 9 out of ten times...just helps my point ecm are not needed most of the time and the kit what ever money that is..$800.00 ? is not worth the extra 2 hp you might get

[BuellPastor]

Mr Drummer did say it was unecessary to do anything other than add his pipe.

[LeFox]

Mr Drummer did say it was unecessary to do anything other than add his pipe.
see above remark by BPG:

Some drummer pipes you can get away with running their pipe without tuning it. Check with them first. Since they are just basically a redone stock pipe it is possible.
--------------------------------

IM talking dyno runs that are made with upgrade ecm race kits pipes the whole combo. dont get 87 88 hp.....that dyno chart shows 87 88 hp with stock ecm with after market muffler......im using that dyno chart to prove my point...you richen up that dyno run your hp is down..those numbers are as good as one will get with stock motor...and much better them a full race kit 9 out of ten times...just helps my point ecm are not needed most of the time and the kit what ever money that is..$800.00 ? is not worth the extra 2 hp you might get
the purpose of the dyno i posted is not to refer to the hp you get, but it's to point out the air/fuel ratio, which is the cause for engine damage.
but if you wanna take it all out of context, whatever makes you happy...keep your money (700$ for a complete kit) and go buy a new engine after time.
i'll be the one saying "told you so!"
[up]

[maybebuell]

there is no engine damage happening there..where do you think a stock air fuel ratio is running at..just adding a pipe does not change air fuel.....purpose of the dyno chart shows if your not getting enough gas ..your not going to get those hp and torque numbers.......thanks for poasting chart for members to see....your not going to get numbers like that if your running to lean bottom line

[BuellPartsGuy]

your not going to get numbers like that if your running to lean bottom line

And you will be running lean modifying your bike and not doing some sort of tuner....

[maybebuell]

depends on mod i agree but that chart shows good air fuel ratio in safe zone...I here knowone disputing the hp and tq numbers being just as good or better with stock ecm and a clip on pipe......my point before about most full kits running rich and you said thats because they make best power rich.is not true....most are set up to rich loosing power ..you can play with the tuner all you want ..untill its dyno tuned at every 200 rpm you will be down on power thats another $300 for a proper tune.....now where up to $1000 best bang for the buck just add a muffler....if you rub your finger in your exhaust and its sooty on your finger tip black... your to rich loosing as much as 10 hp....and thats the main reason people dont get the numbers or performance they should with a full race kit numbers

[LeFox]

now...the part between 3500 & 400rpm where the line gets out of chart...the part where most bikes run at for 70% of the time.
is that running lean or running rich?

same bike, same dyno, tuned version
http://www.dragbike.nl/pictures/Pictures2007/tpp/BuellUlyDirectLink.jpg

[BuellPartsGuy]

If the solid line on the bottom of the chart is the actual a/f ratio (not the dotted line) it bounces into extreme lean condition. It hardly gets on the rich side much at all, thats what I dont understand what maybebuell is trying to prove. It maintains a 12.9:1 or higher ratio at all times. Most of the time its above optimum 14.7:1 ratio which is lean.

Higher number = more lean

[LeFox]

i think there's some confusion somewhere...

chart 1: 1203cc, stock ecm, hp big oval & 45 headers
http://www.dragbike.nl/pictures/Pictures2007/tpp/BuellUlystockmap.jpg
according to me there's a problem area round 3400-4100 that really needs attention (90% of which is above af15 = running to lean)

chart 2: 1203cc, race ecm, hp big oval & 45 headers
http://www.dragbike.nl/pictures/Pictures2007/tpp/BuellUlyRaceECM.jpg
better, but still room for improvement...part round 3500rpm ok, but can improve.
note that the race ecm is made for the buell race exhaust, so another exhaust will have different results.

chart 3: 1203cc, direct link, hp big oval & 45 headers
http://www.dragbike.nl/pictures/Pictures2007/tpp/BuellUlyDirectLink.jpg
i don't see the af going above 14, which should mean it's not running lean at all.

[maybebuell]

I see all hp numbers in the three charts very close to the same..matter of fact they all look the same like copys of each other..at each rpm through the range the numbers are the same down low and in upper rpm. 1 or two hp.air ratio is going to change with different days and runs and different temps........if there is not a drop off in hp and torque in any range your in the ball park....perhaps the drummer takes care of the lean spot between 3200 and 4200 rpm...eather way great numbers with just a clip on muffler.. perhaps the drummer if it can make some strong tq as shown in the charts and less hp could still be the best bang for the buck........ ok carry on leave some rubber tomorrow i know i will

[maybebuell]

All runs done with same pipe

[LeFox]

maybebuell, you wanna try and read things a bit better before making judgement.
i've posted these to look at the af so everyone can see what changes using standard ecm, race ecm or direct link, which is the actual Q in this topic.

since the exhaust is changed from standard to open (slip on) the airflow will increase, making the engine run more lean then programmed to with the standard muffler.
lean = no good for the engine and could cause major damage.
maybe you're lucky, maybe not...wanna take the chance, that's you're choice. you're old enough to make up you're own mind.

so, i'm not looking at hp, since 45mm headers are no slip on and these numbers can not be compared.
the af will not be the same either, but you can relate and see what does what.

fyi if you look good at the tq line in the last setup you can see that low-end tq is alot better.
and for some more info, this is not a jap racer...the 1203 thundertwin is a low rev engine which has no use for high hp, since you're redlining before you can use it. it's torque you need and that's what the mods are all about!

[BuellPastor]

I really have no idea what either say. Wish I did.

[maybebuell]

well paster thats why my bike is carb...this efi stuff
is a money pit..Lefox thanks for your time.....that lean zone on the chart would not be a problem for me....the dyno chart not the A/F CHART THE DYNO CHART looks good and strong and I dont feel would be a problem at wot your there for a blink of an eye...and cruzing down he highway at a steady speed in that lean zone..your butterfly is only cracked open and the A/F ratio wont read that high...your right about tq ...I pull a lot of high hp bikes on the highway..there running more hp but half the tq.......no reason they cant install from factory a program that adjust itself with pipe and air filter change

[LeFox]

no reason they cant install from factory a program that adjust itself with pipe and air filter change

it's not done because of environmental reasons. and mapped is still better performance to your needs & fitted parts, that's why a remapped ecm is still better than the race ecm.

cheapest performance change you can do with stock xb is cut he white wire going to the gray connector on the ecm.


I really have no idea what either say. Wish I did.
buellpastor, you want what is best for your bike?
use race ecm or even better, remap your ecm...you're tq will increase and acceleration will be much smoother.
but at the end of the day, the choice is yours and your bike will run with only slip on & standard ecm.

[BuellPastor]

LeFox - It is my intention to remap the ecm, add K&N, and likely a Drummer. (even though Mr Drummer says no remap is necessary). I really have liked the contact from Mr Drummer. The Jardine sounds awesome, but I don't want to buy a race ecm nor do I know what repacking is like - have heard it isn't bad. The Jardine does look nice too. I haven't seen a Drummer yet.

[LeFox]

well then to explain everything simple:
http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/627_20070723141024_L.jpg

now, i'm not giving a guarantee that you will have engine damage when running with stock ecm and aftermarket exhaust, but the chance exists.
i am saying that your engine will run more healthy and smoother when changing ecm or prefferably remap.
;)

[maybebuell]

i was thinking they where just a clip[ on i see there is a header system also...will the stock header with clipon help the lean on chart one..........the race ecm was just installed with no dyno tune ? on chart 2..........and on chart 3 was the stock ecm remap done with dyno tune..or was map already downloaded.....like i said before most race ecm are to rich if not dynoed tuned..thanks for info

[BuellPastor]

I understood the too lean and too rich aspect - but what are the two lines (one is solid, other dotted) Oh...and thanks

[LeFox]

will the stock header with clipon help the lean on chart one
a bit, but it will still be 2 lean...


the race ecm was just installed with no dyno tune ?
race ecm installed with required learn-in period before testing.


was the stock ecm remap done with dyno tune
it's a dyno-tuned remap...remapping with pre-made downloaded maps blows.


like i said before most race ecm are to rich if not dynoed tuned
race-ecm is mapped for 'race' use and actually mapped using the buell race exhaust.
all you can do is make sure the learn-in period is correctly done.

[yoursailor05]

What is it that you have to calibrate when you install the race ecm?

[BuellPartsGuy]

You have to flash the ECM to the bike and reset the TPS voltage and zero the TPS position

[yoursailor05]

are there like instructions with the ecm?

[BuellPartsGuy]

It has to be done by the Harley Digital Technician at a dealer or authorized mechanic. There is a certain procedure that has to be done in conjunction with that computer system.

[BuellPastor]

LeFox et al: I need help. I will be getting an Econo Drummer (used) next week. It is also time for my 1000 mile service. If possible I would like to avoid the dealer. I have reread these posts plus several by Kevin of Drummer and I want to do what is best and cheapest and fun for me. I would love to do the service myself and set up the bike properly for the Drummer (and maybe remap stock ecm and add K&N). What do I need to make this happen? My thinking is I would enjoy doing this work, I could buy a TPS reset tool (or use the free one) and save $$ on servicing. Any advice? I tried to search for 1000 mile service in multiple ways, but the searches came up empty.
Thanks!!

[MrOrange]

BuellPastor

I picked up my XB9s with 500 miles on the clock. I got a Jardine CF pipe, "self" air box mod, and then installed the race ECM. By then I was at 1200 miles so I got the TPS reset software and cables. I read the notepad files that came with the VSDT on how to reset the ECM. Changed the oil, and followed the owners manual on what to check and change. What I'm trying to say is that is is not hard to preform maintenance on this bike. Just a bit of research and you can get away with about 90% of all the maintenance yourself. I recommend to keep all of your mods simple by using production parts like the race ECM. With that said, I have not dynoed my bike so I can not compare what the difference is between the stock ECM remapped to your specific application or the race ECM but probably they are similar. I would be willing to bet that the race ECM might be a bit on the lean side with the Jardine pipe but not so much that my XB9 does not ping--even with 89 octane regular pump gas. So, I think you are on the right track by trying to avoid the $$ that the dealers will suck out of you. You probably will not notice that much of a difference between the Race ECM and the drummer vs. Custom mapped ECM/Drummer and with the dyno and software/hardware costs you would be much better off with the race ECM/drummer. I'm sorry to rant on about this stuff, long day + lots of beer = drunken opinions. :D

[LeFox]

pastor...

direkt-link without a dyno is just not possible if you want to do it correctly.
best option there is just fit the race ecm.

although you can probably download tested maps for the drummer, for me that's not good enough when not seeing the difference in result vs the race ecm.
direkt-link for me is setting up you bike perfect so it purs like a kitten en reacts like you want it too. and that's just not possible without a dyno.

try and search for engineers that already did this setup. they will have a map ready to upload and just need 0.5h of dyno time and work to fine-tune it to your settings.
in other words, you'll be out of there with a perfectly running bike for less than 100$

[ekolasin]

excellant thread this!! i learned so much, THANKS!

[LeFox]

excellant thread this!! i learned so much, THANKS!
that's why i linked you to it ;)

[buellxb]

Wow LeFox! This is my first read of this post. VERY thorough explanation and the dyno charts are great. I really appreciate your input on this forum. [up]

Thanks to everyone else that commented on this thread as well, this is a common issue with many opinions and contrasting view points.

Note that if you are or have been linking to this post that the url has changed. I created a new forum for the 1125R and it changed the url path to everything that was in the Firebolt forum. I didn't realize that I changed so many url paths, and I hope Google doesn't hate on Buellxb.com for it.

[onelogue]

Just had my bike remapped at the dealer for $95. I have the K&N filter and factory (dicontinued) race exhaust. Lefox is right people! Bike runs cooler, throttle is a quicker response, with out the popping and it idles perfectingly at 1000rpm. All around the bike accelerates and hold a way smoother constant speed on the highway. THanks for all the info BPG & Lefox!:)

[GatorBuell]

FYI, when I started with ecmspy I ran a few logs on my stock setup then with the slip on Jardine. I wish I had kept the logs for this kind of thing. Stock, the AFR compensation stayed between 99.8 and 102, thats the ecm adding and removing fuel to stay at stoich. Below 100 its removing fuel and above 100 its adding fuel. With the stock air and Jardine it never went under 103 and as high as 109(lean) with a K&N and Jardine it went up to around 118%.

[taylor]

by putting a right side scoop and rapping the header, does this change anything? will it be a issue? i only see good coming from it but more info is always good.

[GatorBuell]

less heat around the motor is always a good thing, but it will not fix a problem or reduce the internal temp of the motor due to a lean air fuel ratio.

[BurtonXB12R]

So after all this talk, there's no definite answer?
Or a much widely agreed upon answer?

Stock air, stock ECM, jardine slip on= too lean and possible damage?
Stock air, remapped ECM, slip on= best combination?

[NewBueller]

Wow, a lot of information on this post.
My girlfriend is getting the jardine slip on put on her XB9SX in a week or two, and was told by the dealer that the remapping would not be needed, "but ride it a little and see".
Guess I will let her know that putting on the jardine slip on she should spend the extra $100 and get it remapped.
She is just looking at a little better sound, she doesn't push it on the bike.

[amon2001]

I just picked up a 2009 XB12SS with 7800km on last Thrusday... The only mod is a Jardine exhaust... after reading this post I am a bit concerned about possible engine damage... I have been looking for this bike for a long time and now that I have it I want to take the best care possible. There is no dyno anywhere around here... The bike runs great, but I would not want to chance any engine damage from running it too lean. Any suggestions...
if i try to remap the ecm is there anyway i can backup the current programming incase the bike doesnt run as well, (i have heard of horror stories of buell's running like crap after playing around with settings, and even the dealer cannot bring it back to where it was.)

[PonyXB12]

Anybody have a Dyno run of a gutted stock muffler/ K&N setup? maybe before and after tuning?