Rocker box gasket service

After my latest round of full throttle tuning, my rear rocker box (most likely just the PCV grommet) is leaking enough for oil to make its way down to the primary cover. So I bought the gaskets and grommets needed to do a whole rocker box gasket/grommet service on both cylinders and have started tearing the bike down. My concern is with engine rotation because I don't think I've ever needed to do it before - or my memory is failing me and I just don't remember what I did a very long time ago.

I need to rotate the engine significantly in order to clear the frame and rear valve cover. It doesn't seem like that's going to be possible with a simple rotation down. I was considering remove the engine entirely from the bike, but am also kind of lazy and would like to avoid unnecessary dismantling for a mere gasket repair. I've started thinking about using my engine hoist to strap the frame up and lift it over the engine instead? I've got a rear stand supporting the bike via some axle sliders, not sure that's enough for stabilization, but I've always been a bit dangerous. :black_eyed:

Anyway, looking for opinions... not really sure what to do here. Bike's been on "jackstands" for the last month or more and would like to get it back on the road again. :up:

Happy belated US Thanksgiving.

34:19 should be able to weigh in here, but I know he's all for lifting the frame off the motor vs. just a rotation. I've gotta say, after my first rotation last month, I was surprised at how tight the access still is. Given it was my first time, I wasn't feeling up for completely dropping the motor out, but I think the extra time to do it could more than offset the time spent goofing around trying to get in through the top of the frame.

I never thought it was terrible working between the frame on the rear cylinder. I mean it's a little fiddly, but nothing out of the ordinary considering what I deal with working on cars for a living. I will say though 34:19 swears by the frame removal procedure and I'm sure it does allow much better access to the motor.

What's the opinion on using the crane to lift the frame up and away from the engine while it's supported and still attached to the rear mount (so it can rotate)?

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

What's the opinion on using the crane to lift the frame up and away from the engine while it's supported and still attached to the rear mount (so it can rotate)?

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I'm not sure I follow. The crane sounds smart for lifting off the frame when fully disconnected, but I don't see how it helps in a rotation. When I did my rotation I left the lift under the engine without fully locking off the valve and it slowly lowered down to the point where the engine was touching the front tire by the time I came back outside. Are oyu removing the wheel and trying to lift the frame further to get the front cylinder completely on it's side?

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Originally Posted by RidetheLightning

I'm not sure I follow. The crane sounds smart for lifting off the frame when fully disconnected, but I don't see how it helps in a rotation. When I did my rotation I left the lift under the engine without fully locking off the valve and it slowly lowered down to the point where the engine was touching the front tire by the time I came back outside. Are oyu removing the wheel and trying to lift the frame further to get the front cylinder completely on it's side?

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Yes, I was planning to remove the front wheel and completely expose the top of the rear cylinder for unfettered access to it, but now planning to do both cylinders at the same time.

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

After my latest round of full throttle tuning, my rear rocker box (most likely just the PCV grommet) is leaking enough for oil to make its way down to the primary cover.

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Why not just replace the grommet? Its not that hard to do even with the engine in place.

https://www.twinmotorcycles.nl/image...k/DSCN3382.JPG

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Originally Posted by RidetheLighning

I wasn't feeling up for completely dropping the motor out, but I think the extra time to do it could more than offset the time spent goofing around trying to get in through the top of the frame.

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My feelings exactly, but for a single rocker box, if you just want to get it done as quickly as possible, a rotate should be OK. I like to do a thorough cleaning and replace more of the hard to get at gaskets and seals so I appreciate the access provided by removing the frame completely.

To remove the frame its only about 5 more steps from a rotation, and you really need a secure area to do this job as you will have motorcycle parts everywhere for awhile. Some peoples work area situations may make the rotate much more palatable than a removal.

Also, the rotate requires being able to drop (rotate) the front of the engine downwards. I like to use a regular ATV style platform jack which makes the rotate part a little tricky, but provides a stable base to hold the motor and swingarm in place when pulling the frame off.

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

What's the opinion on using the crane to lift the frame up and away from the engine

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If you want to, sure....

Attachment 15949

But I think this is much easier. Its even easier with the forks and front wheel in place as that can carry the some of the weight of the assembly.

Attachment 15950

#1 Ignore it. It's not a race bike that gets ridden that way so it won't leak that bad normally riding. Wipe it off before you cars n' coffee run, and enjoy a working motorcycle.
#2 Just replace that one weeping grommet in 10 seconds, and put it back together, so you can get to cars n' coffee, and enjoy a working motorcycle.
#3 I use a paddock stand on the swingarm, ratchet straps from the rafters to the pillion peg mounts, the front wheel chocked, and an automotive found-in-the-trunk scissor jack to lower the engine. It allows the engine to rotate easier but is less stable than an ATV jack. It might get back together by March. Might. (See 34:19's garage).
#4 It does make sense to remove the last 4 bolts and remove the engine, find any other possible issues and proceed accordingly with parts and repairs, maybe forever. (See the other side of 34:19's garage). But wait, aren/t we just talking about a seeping grommet? See #1, maybe #2 IMO.

Summers coming! Tick tock!

Thanks all. The leak has created quite a mess, so I really need to "get in there" in order to clean it up. If the rear cylinder can be fully exposed through rotation then I'm probably fine, but I didn't think that would be the case.

I do have the space to dismantle everything and leave it that way for a while. I finally completed my shop, so I've got the bike in a corner where it can live for a long time. My 1125CR is back on the road, so I'm still on 2-wheels as well, otherwise this would've been far more urgent!

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

If the rear cylinder can be fully exposed through rotation then I'm probably fine, but I didn't think that would be the case.

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Are you replacing the PCV grommet or the rocker box cover gasket? Even if you are replacing the rocker box gasket, you do not need to unbolt the head or remove the cylinder.

His first post said rear rocker is leaking. Honestly, it depends on your room and how quickly you want to ride. I had high hopes of replacing all sorts of stuff, but I was working in a carport with limited hours, so I opted to just rotate and replace what was leaking, nothing more. Rotation isn't that difficult, space is pretty tight, but PCV was by far easiest part of the process. Just my 0.02.

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Originally Posted by RidetheLightning

His first post said rear rocker is leaking. Honestly, it depends on your room and how quickly you want to ride. I had high hopes of replacing all sorts of stuff, but I was working in a carport with limited hours, so I opted to just rotate and replace what was leaking, nothing more. Rotation isn't that difficult, space is pretty tight, but PCV was by far easiest part of the process. Just my 0.02.

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I think you would likely agree that determing whether its really the rocker box gasket or the PCV grommet is going to be paramount to whether the job takes 15 minutes or 6 hours.

How much time do you think you had into your rotate? 3 hours each way?

It sounds like a rotation will do it, I will see. I'm going in to replace all of the top end gaskets and seals, including the PCV grommet and the rocker box seal. I was also thinking about replacing the intake seals, but I can't figure out what parts I actually need for that job.

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Originally Posted by 34nineteen

I think you would likely agree that determing whether its really the rocker box gasket or the PCV grommet is going to be paramount to whether the job takes 15 minutes or 6 hours.

How much time do you think you had into your rotate? 3 hours each way?

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probably 3-4 hours, going verrry slowly, to rotate down. More like 1-2 to get it back together. And yes, PCV would be an extremely quick job.

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

It sounds like a rotation will do it, I will see. I'm going in to replace all of the top end gaskets and seals, including the PCV grommet and the rocker box seal. I was also thinking about replacing the intake seals, but I can't figure out what parts I actually need for that job.

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Not trying to be a jerk here, but the part for the intake seal is the intake seal(s). If you google buellxb intake seal you will find all sorts of info. Some people swear by the james intake seals with the lip, others say those are too much of a pain to get to fit right and to just use OEM.

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Originally Posted by RidetheLightning

Not trying to be a jerk here, but the part for the intake seal is the intake seal(s). If you google buellxb intake seal you will find all sorts of info. Some people swear by the james intake seals with the lip, others say those are too much of a pain to get to fit right and to just use OEM.

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LOL I think where I became confused was when I started looking at the James catalog comparing it to the St. Paul HD online catalog. Wasn't clear if there was a variation between years of the engines (2003-2007 vs 2008-2010) and then I also discovered that I might need a special tool for installation. I basically realized that it was a bit more of a PITA than I was hoping for... and gave up.

I finally got the bastard rotated down using a combination of engine hoist with straps, transmission jack adapter on a floor jack and the Pitbull rear stand. Unfortunately, my throttle cables are damaged - the metal housing is completely worn down exposing the inner cable. I think the correct part for my '08 XB12Ss is N0307.5AC and N0308.5AC, but I don't see any of those in stock anywhere. I do see that St. Paul's HD has N0308.5AA and N0307.5AA, but they are supposedly for the XB12R?
Attachment 15996

I have some brand new ones still sealed in the HD bag, let me see what number they are.

Nothing special or specific about a Ss cable set.

N0307.5AC is the puller cable for all S models---stock bars---excess of 25 still in system.
N0308.5AC is pusher/return cable---clean/lube/re-use if possible as nothing more than a bull**** safety cable.

AA series for Firebolt only.

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Originally Posted by Barrett

Nothing special or specific about a Ss cable set.

N0307.5AC is the puller cable for all S models---stock bars---excess of 25 still in system.
N0308.5AC is pusher/return cable---clean/lube/re-use if possible as nothing more than a bull**** safety cable.

AA series for Firebolt only.

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Thanks for confirming. The pusher/return cable is completely destroyed for some reason. This is the 1st engine rotation I've ever done myself (I think), but I've had the HD dealership perform several warranty repairs back in the day. The only place I'm seeing stock for the cables is on Twin Motorcycles out of the Netherlands. I'm happy to order from there, but was thinking it might be more expeditious to find parts in the USA.

Leak from rear cylinder appears to be from every orifice LOL. The lower rocker box gasket and upper rocker box O-rings were all suspect as well as the PCV grommet. I do see that my old rocker cover gasket has a slightly older revision than the new one I've purchased, so maybe there's been some improvements from the motor company themselves. That said, it's unclear whether there's a clear winner with regards to using the James Gaskets equivalent or HD.

I ended up using the James kit I have, as it has a steel coated gasket just like the HD one for the lower rocker box. The upper O-rings are red in color and lack nubs along their length, but aside from that appear similar and fit well.

I had not rotated the engine enough to remove the exhaust pushrod, but was able to remove the intake one. Reassembling the lower rocker box onto the head after cleanup, I'm seeing that the exhaust pushrod has pressure on it that keeps the other end in contact with the exhaust valve tip, but I'm not seeing this with the intake pushrod. It's far enough down that I'm still able to move the intake rocker arm around significantly. Do I need to be concerned here? I've rotated the crank to ensure that the valves are at their lowest positions, but it seems like I'm not doing something right if the intake valve tip has that much slack in it.

Cheers!

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

Reassembling the lower rocker box onto the head after cleanup, I'm seeing that the exhaust pushrod has pressure on it that keeps the other end in contact with the exhaust valve tip, but I'm not seeing this with the intake pushrod. It's far enough down that I'm still able to move the intake rocker arm around significantly. Do I need to be concerned here? I've rotated the crank to ensure that the valves are at their lowest positions, but it seems like I'm not doing something right if the intake valve tip has that much slack in it.

Cheers!

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I would definitely look into that. Even when the rocker box is tightened down with the pushrods in the lowest position, there should not be any slack. Even after the lifters bleed down, you should only be able to ROTATE THE PUSHROD by hand, but no slack in the rocker arm. First, I would check the valve spring to make sure its not broken or damaged, then the lifter, then the cams.

This is why installing the rocker box and tightening the bolts down should only be done with the crank/cams in the correct position. Even in that position, there will be pressure on both pushrods as you tighten the 4 bolts down. Yes, you could theoretically tighten down the bolts with the crank/cam in any position, but you risk stripping bolt threads or damaging something in the process.

And you need to wait AT LEAST 1/2 hour (opinions vary on time) after torquing down one rocker box, before doing the other.

I wonder if I messed something up by rotating the crank. I've been using a large socket on the drive belt pulley, assuming that is the crank. I have seen the exhaust pushrod go up and down, but honestly haven't witnessed the intake pushrod do anything. Sounds like I need to rotate it a bit more and make sure the intake pushrod actually rises and falls.

I have not removed the pushrod cover as I did not remove the cylinder head... but I wonder if I have to do that since something is up (or not up in this case).

It wouldn't have ran...

You are over your head and going to make much bigger and more expensive problems than you are trying to fix:upset:

1) Leave that cold garage, sit on your comfy couch in a warm house, and read the ****ing manual. It is spelled out step-by-step in simple language.:eagerness:
2) Understand it, ask specific questions about a specific step, or see #1.
3) No, the rear belt pulley is not the crankshaft.

Buellmods.com

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Originally Posted by Cooter

It wouldn't have ran...

You are over your head and going to make much bigger and more expensive problems than you are trying to fix:upset:

1) Leave that cold garage, sit on your comfy couch in a warm house, and read the ****ing manual. It is spelled out step-by-step in simple language.:eagerness:
2) Understand it, ask specific questions about a specific step, or see #1.
3) No, the rear belt pulley is not the crankshaft.

Buellmods.com

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I've been following the manual to the tee, but it doesn't describe what I'm seeing regarding the pushrods. You misunderstood what I'm describing as the drive belt pulley... I'm talking about the pulley on the engine itself, not the rear wheel. My bike currently does not even have a rear wheel installed on it (for other reasons).

Is it possible that when I reinstalled the pushrod that it is not sitting on the lifter cup? I didn't think the hole was large enough for that to happen, but clearly something is amiss. It's that or the lifter has totally collapsed. My intake rocker has about 0.5" of play in it before it contacts the valve tip right now.

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

I've been following the manual to the tee, but it doesn't describe what I'm seeing regarding the pushrods. You misunderstood what I'm describing as the drive belt pulley... I'm talking about the pulley on the engine itself, not the rear wheel. My bike currently does not even have a rear wheel installed on it (for other reasons).

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There is a belt pulley on the engine. You can rotate the engine with that pulley, but with as small the purchase area is on the pulley and the amount of leverage required to turn the motor over, its much, much, much easier to do it by rotating the rear wheel. Unless you want to remove the lock plate from the pulley nut, and even then you dont get a lot of purchase. Also, this nut is left hand threaded, you if you are turning it the correct way, your wrench will try to loosen the nut, which will create another problem. Your best bet it to reinstall the wheel, belt and pulley, put the transmission in 5th gear and rotate the rear wheel. This is how the instruction book calls out to rotate the crankshaft for most procedures.


http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/...11065647_L.jpg

http://www.buellxb.com/buell_images/...11065725_L.jpg


The other way to do it is to remove the primary and turn the crank nut with a wrench and socket. The Hammer video demonstrates that and here is a version of the tool they used.

https://www.toolsource.com/upper-eng...l-p-93123.html

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

Is it possible that when I reinstalled the pushrod that it is not sitting on the lifter cup? I didn't think the hole was large enough for that to happen, but clearly something is amiss. It's that or the lifter has totally collapsed. My intake rocker has about 0.5" of play in it before it contacts the valve tip right now.

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This could have happened, if you completely missed the lifter and the pushrod is somehow sitting in there sideways.



In any case, watch this video, its not an XB motor, but the idea is similar. You can see how much the pushrods should be able to move once its all buttoned up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOwSjlpxGJo

Thanks for the sanity check - it was once again, user error. I had somehow installed the intake pushrod without it making contact with the lifter itself. Not sure how that happened as there is very little room within the tube to misplace it, but sure enough, that's what I did. This was confirmed by cycling the motor and not seeing the intake pushrod rise and fall at all. Reinstalled and all is well now.

The Hammer Performance video shows them using some kind of threadlocker on the rocker arm bolts. That's definitely not called out in the Buell manual. What's the collective Bueller consensus on that?

Attachment 16021

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Originally Posted by Mesozoic

Thanks for the sanity check - it was once again, user error. I had somehow installed the intake pushrod without it making contact with the lifter itself. Not sure how that happened as there is very little room within the tube to misplace it, but sure enough, that's what I did. This was confirmed by cycling the motor and not seeing the intake pushrod rise and fall at all. Reinstalled and all is well now.

The Hammer Performance video shows them using some kind of threadlocker on the rocker arm bolts. That's definitely not called out in the Buell manual. What's the collective Bueller consensus on that?

Attachment 16021

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There is actually a lot of room in the Buell pushord cover at the bottom. Its just an open cavity that encases both of the lifter bores and then some.

https://www.picclickimg.com/d/l400/p...9SX-Engine.jpg



I dont use locktite on the bolts, especially on a stock build. If you are using a Hammer kit with Cometic MLS gaskets, then sure, why not? If Hammer Dan is doing it, and is broadcasting it to the world in these videos, it cant be all that bad.

Since I've gotten into the rocker boxes I realize how easy it is to "bolt on" one of these Hammer Performance big bore kits. Very tempting! However, I think I'm going to wait until the engine is burning oil or some other wear condition pushes me into that. I'd have to retune as well, which is something I just finished on my existing setup (took me a while to complete). Thanks for the help!

Glad you got it sorted.