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Thread: DDFI-3 tuning with stock o2 sensor

  1. #21
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Really not sure how to do it. Dont feel confortable by just adding 20% blindly. If you analyze the stock maps you see this relationship doesnt hold. There are parts of the stock map in which rear cylinder is richer than fronts and other the contrary is true.
    Yes I whole hardily agree this is NOT the way to do it, I was under the impression you were only going to stick it in the rear cylinder and go from there so I too wondered what you planned to do about the front. I was urging you to do both cylinders.

    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Tought about tuning one cylinder at a time so that I'd need to buy only one WB kit. Is this a OK solution in your opinion?
    Yes one at a time dataloging AFR's and tuning the map for that cylinder to your target AFR, then move to the other cylinder and do the same procedure to match the same target AFR. Does your bike already have front and rear 02 bungs?

  2. #22
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    How to figure out ideal AFR's:

    Lets make a hypothetical to work with, stock celled map in open loop / bike only running K&N air filter for mods. (this is your setup correct?)

    1.) Now lets work with front cylinder first and shoot for a steady target 13.5-1 AFR in the open loop cells to begin with. Datalog 3rd gear pull on predetermined stretch of road (pick a landmark to start from and start there every time) now hold a steady WOT 2K to rev limit from that start point. Come back and edit cells off of that datalog and repeat the procedure until your datalog is rock steady to the 13.5 AFR for the front.

    2.) Time to switch the wide band to the rear and do the same exact steps for a steady 13.5 AFR rear. All good now? Time to go to that same stretch of road you've been using so we can tune for ideal AFR.

    3.) With that map hitting our predetermined target AFR of 13.5 front and rear, make 4 or 5 maps adding 1% to 2% more fuel than the last across open loop cells.

    4.) Datalog 3rd gear pull on predetermined stretch of road (pick a landmark to start from and start there every time) now hold a steady WOT 2K to rev limit from that start point. do it 5 times same exact pull and same landmark. Overlay data and pull the average

    5.) Do the same procedure as step 4 with each map created in step 3.

    6.) Overlay averages with time from 2K to rev limit, shortest time it takes wins.

    At this point is where I'd call it good but keep in mind you "could" make more power with a different AFR from front to rear. Lets say your richest map has a value of 12.8 AFR and your shortest time on data overlay (step 6) was a 13.1 AFR. You would do steps 3 - 6 again only pulling or adding fuel one cylinder at a time. This would be like splitting hairs on a 90hp engine and VERY time consuming, not worth it IMO

    This also doesn't take into account timing adjustments.

  3. #23
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    [QUOTE=lowkey;582971


    Yes one at a time dataloging AFR's and tuning the map for that cylinder to your target AFR, then move to the other cylinder and do the same procedure to match the same target AFR. Does your bike already have front and rear 02 bungs?[/QUOTE]

    No, I'd have to have the front pipe welded a bung. Only 2010 bikes have two bungs.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    Interesting! Would like to hear more on the how and why on this...

    Is it a consistent value across the cells or all over the place? By how much percentage would you say?
    Some cells appear to be lean, others rich. Take a look at this fresh datalog:

    Datalog.jpg

  5. #25
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Some cells appear to be lean, others rich. Take a look at this fresh datalog:

    Datalog.jpg
    Hopefully someone with experience with this software can interpret the data for us with a clearer understanding of what is going on.

    mcaff forgive me as I'm not trying to discourage you from your project but with only a K&N filter I don't fully understand your goal?

    Lets say instead of your motorcycle this is a current stock mustang GT with only a K&N drop in filter, who would bother tuning this? Aside from K&N for drop in filter sales that is?

  6. #26
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
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    It's a correction percentage, just like AFV. 110 is adding 10% more fuel. 90 is 10% less fuel.

    Stock tunes are generic for all regions of the USA. Tuning for your conditions/elevation will always be worth it, even 100% stock.

  7. #27
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AZmidget91 View Post
    It's a correction percentage, just like AFV. 110 is adding 10% more fuel. 90 is 10% less fuel.
    understood, but the HOW it is coming up with these values for open loop on narrow band sensor data is what I'd like to know.


    Quote Originally Posted by AZmidget91 View Post
    Stock tunes are generic for all regions of the USA. Tuning for your conditions/elevation will always be worth it, even 100% stock.
    True, but he are already dialed in closed loop... I guess our definition of "worth it" is different.

    I'd say if he added fuel at a 1% to 2% rate to his open loop and data-logged until the 2k to to redline times stopped dropping he would get the same outcome although he wouldn't know the actual AFR.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    Hopefully someone with experience with this software can interpret the data for us with a clearer understanding of what is going on.

    mcaff forgive me as I'm not trying to discourage you from your project but with only a K&N filter I don't fully understand your goal?

    Lets say instead of your motorcycle this is a current stock mustang GT with only a K&N drop in filter, who would bother tuning this? Aside from K&N for drop in filter sales that is?
    Well yes my bike has a K&N filter and the exhaust valve is locked open and thatīs it.
    Sincerely I wouldnīt like to waste my time tuning it if its stock performance was good. But talking to several people here in Brazil they were unanimous saying remapping with a wideband made the bike run a lot better. Iīm not sure but maybe the fact I run the exhaust wide open made the ECM run above its optimal level letīs say. I bought the bike this way, as the valve actuator got broken with the previous owner, so I never ran it 100% stock.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Well yes my bike has a K&N filter and the exhaust valve is locked open and thatīs it.
    Sincerely I wouldnīt like to waste my time tuning it if its stock performance was good. But talking to several people here in Brazil they were unanimous saying remapping with a wideband made the bike run a lot better. Iīm not sure but maybe the fact I run the exhaust wide open made the ECM run above its optimal level letīs say. I bought the bike this way, as the valve actuator got broken with the previous owner, so I never ran it 100% stock.
    ...ECM run BELOW, not above...

  10. #30
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mcaff View Post
    Some cells appear to be lean, others rich. Take a look at this fresh datalog:

    Datalog.jpg
    Ok mcaff found this info:

    "Gego - Gego is short for 'Gamma - Exhaust Gas Oxygen'. It is the change applied to the fuelling equation based on the EGO O2 sensor feedback. This feedback can (and is) done in a number of different ways, depending on the type of sensor, etc. The important thing is that this is a result of an external measurement, not a pure calculation, so it appears a bit mysteriously in the equation."
    Taken from here http://www.megamanual.com/ms2/glossary.htm

    and this

    "VE Analysis FAQ:

    Do I need to disable Gego for VE Analysis? - Gego is factored into the VE Analysis formula. Say the current table VE value for a single calculation is 50 and Gego is 110, 55 will be used as the actual VE value. If Analysis determines that it was lean for that record, the 55 value will be increased accordingly and added as a weighted recommendation. So by running with Gego on, you benefit by having both the ECM learned correction and the current O2 to use as input for correcting the table, instead of just the current O2 output. Having both is better, especially with a NB O2 sensor. So while I would recommend leaving Gego on with either a WB or NB sensor, I highly recommend leaving it on for a NB.

    Taken from here https://www.efianalytics.com/MegaLog...alysisFAQ.html

    So although the first quote is vague on the HOW the info is calculated it does shed some light on the subject. The second quote is showing us how to interpret the data to adjust the fuel maps accordingly.



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