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Thread: ... even more Tunerpro help (static timing questions as well)

  1. #1
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    ... even more Tunerpro help (static timing questions as well)

    2006 XB12Ss, she's running well enough (stable idle, no noticeable hesistations) but gets a pretty rough pinging when hot under load and pops on decel. I decided I'd check the timing first, loaded up TunerPro RT, got the back tire up, got it in 5th, popped the inspection cover off and found a TDC mark. Couple things came up when I did this:

    First, I noticed that the fuel pump initialized (primed) several times between TDC marks. I'm not great at this stuff but I thought it was only supposed to initialize once per TDC? This just confused the hell out of me as I would have though the bike could barely run if it were going through that many injections per cycle. Maybe related, I noticed a fist-sized black mark on the air filter right where the front cylinder rebreather tube comes up (but not near the rear tube).

    Second, I can't find the cam position sensor value in ECMDroid or TunerPro RT for the life of me, I don't know what the hell I'm missing. I looked all over for a CKP value and couldn't find it. I've used Xopti's adx and the buell_v5 adx, and then as mentioned ECMDroid, and nothing.

    Any thoughts/help would be great. Thanks.

    Edit: Also, anyone have a parts pdf? I've got the service manual but I've never seen the parts manual and am having a hell of a time finding part numbers.
    Last edited by Angor; 05-06-2017 at 06:54 PM.

  2. #2
    Senior Member Cooter's Avatar
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    I don't know what you've done for proper diagnosis yet, but jumping around where you are is certainly not going to be and easy find by guessing.
    Pinging when hot/under load could be timing, could be lean, could be overheating, could be crappy gas, could be no problem at all and you're just hearing things on a loud, raucous V-twin.
    'Pops under de-cel' could be lean, could be a leaky exhaust.
    You haven't begun to give enough info about the bike to know but I can guess instead of doing proper diagnosis, just like you are doing. Aftermarket pipe? Stock ECM fuel map? You seem ready to jump into the ECM before checking for any actual information, so what have you done in there? Has the bike always done it? Just bought it? Done any mods recently? Does it always do it? Whats the ambient temp?

    The fuel pump priming has nothing to do with injector cycles.

    The black mark is from the breather fumes.

    An easy :30 second BuellXB search showed me that part numbers can be found here:
    http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...S-LIVE-FINALLY

    Here:
    http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...rts-Website-up!

    And this is a good resource too:
    http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...ference-thread
    Last edited by Cooter; 05-06-2017 at 07:23 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooter View Post
    I don't know what you've done for proper diagnosis yet, but jumping around where you are is certainly not going to be and easy find by guessing.
    Pinging when hot/under load could be timing, could be lean, could be overheating, could be crappy gas, could be no problem at all and you're just hearing things on a loud, raucous V-twin.
    'Pops under de-cel' could be lean, could be a leaky exhaust.
    Yes, and as it could be any of those issues, it seems to logically follow that I should maybe test those issues? Which is why I'm "jumping into" the ECM, in order to determine "actual information"?

    You haven't begun to give enough info about the bike to know but I can guess instead of doing proper diagnosis, just like you are doing. Aftermarket pipe? Stock ECM fuel map? You seem ready to jump into the ECM before checking for any actual information, so what have you done in there? Has the bike always done it? Just bought it? Done any mods recently? Does it always do it? Whats the ambient temp?
    ... let me be clear here, are you reprimanding me for my post? If there's a template form for these, I must have missed it. At no point in time did I make a guess as to what the cause was. The bike is all stock. The ambient temperature is between 40-90 degrees Fahrenheit. The barometric pressure is 29.43 Hg. 66% humidity, 20% chance of precipitation. The moon is in waxing gibbous phase.

    The fuel pump priming has nothing to do with injector cycles.
    This is confusing, then, because everything I've encountered regarding static timing has said that as the timing mark passes TDC the injector will prime. I also didn't say injector cycles.

    The black mark is from the breather fumes.
    Yes, it is. The observation was meant to point out that I'm only getting the mark from one of the cylinders, which could indicate something to someone more knowledgeable than myself.

    An easy :30 second BuellXB search showed me that part numbers can be found here:
    http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...S-LIVE-FINALLY

    Here:
    http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...rts-Website-up!

    And this is a good resource too:
    http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...ference-thread

    An easy 30 second click showed me that none of these are pdfs, the twin motorcycles site search engine couldn't even find a hit for 'sensor', SPHD is useful as always but only gives part #s for what they have in stock, and the third link is a thread, which is wonderful but not exactly all-encompassing.

    I really just don't get this response. I do my research. I do my thread searching. I didn't ask for a diagnosis, you're charging at windmills. I just asked whether it was normal for multiple injector primings to happen between TDC marks when you bump the flywheel, and whether anyone knew where to find the cam position sensor value would be in ECMDroid or TunerPro RT.

  4. #4
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angor View Post
    I just asked whether it was normal for multiple injector primings to happen between TDC marks when you bump the flywheel, and whether anyone knew where to find the cam position sensor value would be in ECMDroid or TunerPro RT.
    Yes it is. If you loosen the CPS to advance/retard, you will hear it prime multiple times as you go from one end of adjustment to the other, this is while you have the flywheel mark centered in the window. You can do it without a computer but best to see visual conformation...

    Put the bike in 5th gear and bump until the mark is just left of center on the window. Adjust the CPS sensor just retard(1-2 degrees) of its advance/retard setting (should be almost exactly half way in the adjustment slots). Now bump the wheel forward with someone stopping you EXACTLY when the mark is center then stop! don't go backward with the mark in the window. loosen the CPS and move it in advanced direction until pump primes, you need to be precise in this step and lock down the CPS right when it triggers to prime. You can move the CPS back and forth to get this exact without worry.

    You are SOL with ECMDroid I think... I looked but since I'm not connected to the bike, I see nothing. It could be an option under live sensor data which you can look up while connected to the bike. TunerProRT probably can do it but I don't know how at this time.

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    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    As for parts list, there is this http://buellmods.com/#TabbedContent. The only one available is for 2003 XB-R so won't have everything you need. Personally I just use http://www.twinmotorcycles.com/webshop/index.asp?mc=1, blue box dead center will get to any parts/numbers you will need, most of the time you will see the parts diagrams as well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    Yes it is. If you loosen the CPS to advance/retard, you will hear it prime multiple times as you go from one end of adjustment to the other, this is while you have the flywheel mark centered in the window. You can do it without a computer but best to see visual conformation...

    Put the bike in 5th gear and bump until the mark is just left of center on the window. Adjust the CPS sensor just retard(1-2 degrees) of its advance/retard setting (should be almost exactly half way in the adjustment slots). Now bump the wheel forward with someone stopping you EXACTLY when the mark is center then stop! don't go backward with the mark in the window. loosen the CPS and move it in advanced direction until pump primes, you need to be precise in this step and lock down the CPS right when it triggers to prime. You can move the CPS back and forth to get this exact without worry.

    You are SOL with ECMDroid I think... I looked but since I'm not connected to the bike, I see nothing. It could be an option under live sensor data which you can look up while connected to the bike. TunerProRT probably can do it but I don't know how at this time.
    This was great, thanks. Good to know I'm not just totally missing it. Timing looks ok, then, and I'm guessing since I always get the fuel pump priming when the TDC mark is in the center of the inspection hole that the CPS is probably ok. Went on to check the intake using a spray of water (was nervous about getting anything that might damage the plastics in there) and get an idle stumble if I spray water on the rear intake flange. Going to order a new set of gaskets now, hopefully it'll help.

  7. #7
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Angor View Post
    This was great, thanks. Good to know I'm not just totally missing it. Timing looks ok, then, and I'm guessing since I always get the fuel pump priming when the TDC mark is in the center of the inspection hole that the CPS is probably ok. Went on to check the intake using a spray of water (was nervous about getting anything that might damage the plastics in there) and get an idle stumble if I spray water on the rear intake flange. Going to order a new set of gaskets now, hopefully it'll help.
    No problem bud! I'm sure this procedure sounds scary without a visual cue from a program to no FOR SURE you did it right but believe me, I had other issues spanning just about 2 months and pulled/adjusted the CPS probably 6 times, by the end I didn't even bother with software, but it is nice to have to be able to check your work!

    As for you testing the intake seals, it is unclear exactly what you are doing, hopefully you aren't putting water into the TB opening! Do yourself a favor an pick up a can of brake clean with the red straw and hit the OUTSIDE flanges of the manifold on both front and rear cylinder, you can even pinpoint what cylinder is leaking with this method. I went with Cometic this time around (3rd set I have done on this XB). Be Sure to use generous amounts of O-ring lube while getting them into position. Before you rotate the motor back up and bolt it all back together I would highly recommend using a snake style USB camera through the TB opening to check your work, gaskets are known to slip out of place and get pinched!

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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    No problem bud! I'm sure this procedure sounds scary without a visual cue from a program to no FOR SURE you did it right but believe me, I had other issues spanning just about 2 months and pulled/adjusted the CPS probably 6 times, by the end I didn't even bother with software, but it is nice to have to be able to check your work!

    As for you testing the intake seals, it is unclear exactly what you are doing, hopefully you aren't putting water into the TB opening! Do yourself a favor an pick up a can of brake clean with the red straw and hit the OUTSIDE flanges of the manifold on both front and rear cylinder, you can even pinpoint what cylinder is leaking with this method. I went with Cometic this time around (3rd set I have done on this XB). Be Sure to use generous amounts of O-ring lube while getting them into position. Before you rotate the motor back up and bolt it all back together I would highly recommend using a snake style USB camera through the TB opening to check your work, gaskets are known to slip out of place and get pinched!

    Hah, yeah, definitely not pouring water into the TB. Sprayed Brakleen around the outside of the flanges on front and rear, heard an idle change on rear, rinsed (the outside) off with water and heard the idle change again, but only on rear. I'll grab a USB camera off Amazon, that's a great tip. I was planning on trying the 'in place' TB removal, but if it's a better idea to do the engine rotation I'm willing to give it a shot. Thanks again.
    Last edited by Angor; 05-07-2017 at 12:59 AM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    First time rotation will probably take you around and hour and a half, once you do it and no exactly what you are in for it's a 30-40 min job. follow this link where I abbreviate what is needed to do the job and also provide the DIY engine rotation link http://www.buellxb.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post585928. Have a look through the DIY to familiarize with doing the job then reference my shortened list which will then make more sense. Doing it without rotation, while possible looks like a major PITA! Better to get the engine down where you have a better chance of getting the job done right! If Twinmotorcycles still rotate the engine for intake gaskets, that says something right there IMO.

  10. #10
    Senior Member Cooter's Avatar
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    Pick apart my post? That was meant to help you? A stranger here, that asked us for help? That will get you far.



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