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Thread: General tuning options and discussion in 2017 (ECMDRoid,ECMSpy etc...)

  1. #11
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    And to add some of my findings:

    flashing an .msq file over .txt (maps over EEPROM) there is more going on in the background than the visible fuel/timing maps for front and rear cylinder, for instance fan logic has changed... decel popping is gone even though the bottom 2 rows of front/rear fuel tables have either the same values per cell or within 1%, leads me to other things are going on to smooth this out I can't see inside ECMSpy. Engine braking has also all but gone away (should be directly connected to those same bottom 2 rows fuel values), I can see where the option for decel popping suppression can now be used (stock mapping it is to aggressive for engine braking IMO).

  2. #12
    Senior Member 34nineteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    Engine braking has also all but gone away (should be directly connected to those same bottom 2 rows fuel values), I can see where the option for decel popping suppression can now be used (stock mapping it is to aggressive for engine braking IMO).

    Should the fuel map have any (negligible) effect on engine braking? I'd attribute that as a mechanical property, that should occur regardless of what fueling system is utilized.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Cooter's Avatar
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    You're already over my head I've never had a problem flashing any fuel map onto a matching (same firmware) ECM using ECMDroid. I don't even know the difference between .xpr, .msq or .txt files as far as what the different info is on them. Flashing a map using ECMDroid does change the ECM settings like fan logic as well if that helps?

    I agree ECMDroid's "downfall" is that its hard to build a map from scratch with it, but that is also it's blessing.
    I only recommend it to people that say 'I just bought my Buell, it pops on decel when I put on a Jardine'. There is no reason for that guy to build a map from scratch. I also recommend it to someone who wants to just clear codes and TPS re-set and earlier bike, but not to someone who put cams or a 1250 kit on. I believe that covers 95% of the typical Buell owner. If that person has a version of ECMSpy, you know 1000 questions are coming that have no bearing on putting an existing map on that otherwise stock bike. They can also make their bike inop with TunerPro and ECMSpy because they don't have the safety built in like ECMDroid does. It's like the Fisher Price version of a laptop, less options mean less options to screw up

    That's great news from AZ! You've been quiet for awhile so I knew you were busy with something I agree it's a matter of passion for everyone involved with Buells. This is a terrible business model to try and make and $$ in an out of production, niche, motorcycle brand. How are you building custom tunes? I'm dabbling in that as well, but not at your level for sure. Are you wideband O2 dyno tuning? Datalogging with the stock narrowband O2? I would LOVE to come by and see the process (of course only if you want to share, but I'll bring beer!)

    Selling dongles, is just selling a part that communicates with the bike. You can use the dongle to install any map you find that works, using whatever tuning program you wish. I don't believe AZ or even Buelltooth.com promises the perfect map supplied for someones bike (for free even) with or without a purchase.

    34nineteen: Engine braking is very much a fuel tuning thing. Fuel on decel will minimize compression braking, where cutting fuel will maximize the compresssion braking effect.
    Last edited by Cooter; 05-08-2017 at 11:09 PM.

  4. #14
    Senior Member 34nineteen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cooter View Post
    It's like the Fisher Price version of a laptop, less options mean less options to screw up
    And maybe thats they way to market it... if someone buys the dongle/tablet... maybe preload some maps to give someone some stuff to play with.

    I'd like to see a "hot weather" map for our bikes out here in AZ and other hot climates that maybe fatten the mix a bit more than normal to help combat the high summer ambient temps.

    Get on it Cooter.... or I'm drinking all of your beer. You have been warned!

  5. #15
    Senior Member Cooter's Avatar
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    That's my point. They do offer free maps as a courtesy to 'play with'. They do not have every map ever made in the history of Buell. Even if you BUY a tune from someone, you will still need someway to burn it to your ECM. For the beginner (like me), I would recommend an easy/safe program to learn (ECMDroid), and a wireless connection (Bluetooth).

    34:19:
    IMO, A 'Hot weather' map is unnecessary, unless you are on the ragged edge of overheating already. Anything other than a stock tune will be fat enough. If you are overheating (pinging) during the summer, we can try to diagnose why.

    Beer! Man, it was HOT on Friday...108*!

  6. #16
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    EDIT: didn't see that cooter explained it but this will elaborate a bit more on the subject and make it more clear.

    Quote Originally Posted by 34nineteen View Post
    Should the fuel map have any (negligible) effect on engine braking? I'd attribute that as a mechanical property, that should occur regardless of what fueling system is utilized.
    less fuel under decel = higher AFR (in excess of 18.0-1) = RPM dropping MUCH harder = possible locking up rear wheel on down shift...

    My bike was just short of skidding on downshifts now it is like a slipper clutch.

    Try for yourself, add 2% fuel to the bottom 2 rows of fuel cells across all RPM. Do 40mph in 5th gear and see how slowly your bike looses speed compared to normal with no throttle input.

    I believe it is a combination of compression an no longer being a power stroke (no fuel burn to force piston down, next piston cycle same deal = stopping crank mass from rotation that much sooner).
    Last edited by lowkey; 05-09-2017 at 12:00 AM. Reason: more info

  7. #17
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 34nineteen View Post
    I'd like to see a "hot weather" map for our bikes out here in AZ and other hot climates that maybe fatten the mix a bit more than normal to help combat the high summer ambient temps.
    It is still unclear if this is possible or not on a narrow band 02 sensor, last tab in ECMSpy you can set values for the sensor. Mike Cobb says it is (xoptimized) Gunther says it is not (key developer behind ECMSpy), why is the data values able to be modified if not then? Still unclear... moving forward I plan to adjust these values and compare datalogs against stock values to see where EGO values go.

    With a wideband in place it is possible to adjust to the AFR you desire.

    Alternatively you could dyno tune to desired AFR's and disable the O2 sensor, install a barometric pressure sensor enabling the ECM to adjust for altitude, temps etc...
    Last edited by lowkey; 05-09-2017 at 04:47 AM. Reason: more info

  8. #18
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    As a new Buell XB owner and someone who is new to tuning my bike wth a computer, I just want to say I heartily welcome this kind of discussion! There is a lot of information on the forum and some disinformation too but it's spread over many threads so it is very confusing. Thank you to lowkey and AZ! If you guys can figure out how to charge for your services helping me learn to tune up my hot rod, I'd be willing to pay. There is a lot of potential in that bike and if I can get it to idle, pull smoothly down low and not fart and pop on overrun, I'd be a happy old Lightning rider!

  9. #19
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Mosquito, no problem if you google search "square idle" you will be rewarded with knowledge from a previous generation of buell ECM tuners, doing this step along with race maps makes a great starting point to fine tune your bike from. 2007 and older bikes you will want ECMSpy (old free version), TunerProRT or ECMSpy Mono to fine tune your maps. 2008 and later bikes can only be tuned buy TunerProRT and ECMSpy Mono.

    K&N and/or exhaust? Race maps will take care of the popping on overrun.

    If you haven't already bought some type of deutsch connector (bluetooth or cable bike communication link) may I suggest PMing AZ?
    Last edited by lowkey; 05-09-2017 at 04:37 AM.

  10. #20
    Senior Member AZmidget91's Avatar
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    The reason Cobb said it was ok to use narrowband, was because he already had base tunes. Once you tune with wideband to get the base tune, you can rely on narrowband for driveability tuning.

    I have tried just using narrowband for tuning in the past and just kept going around in circles with the tune.

    I am using dual widebands, only have the front installed for now, just got the one for the rear yesterday. I am using the PLX SM-AFR and the DM-6 display. The SM-AFR will work properly as a narrowband for the Buell ECM, I am logging the wideband separately into ECMSpy Mono. Still figuring it out though, there isn't much information about connecting that wideband to the PC.



    I can tell this will be addicting, already without datalogging I see some huge lean spots in my map.

    Cooter, I told Aaron to let me know when you're in town so we could grab some beers. If I knew you were here Friday you should have came by the house, was installing the wideband and drinking all night.



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