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Thread: Any last ideas before I dive into the world of custom tunes?

  1. #81
    Senior Member rb70383's Avatar
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    Meh, I'll just richen it up and call it good........

    I'm kidding......
    lowkey, that is a good idea. I wish there was a little explanation how the accel enrichment works. Basically what all the settings on the enrichment page actually do. Way back when, we had a meet and greet in FL. Xopti, burned the "race" data into my ECM. He also tweaked the accel page. Overall bike ran good, but as it ages, and me swapping things, the map needs some tiding up. I have a 12 header with dual O2 and an innovate DLG-1. Still on the parts shelf.

    I want to see if I can log both sensors at the same time.
    Adding to that, doing a NB:WB comparo is a great idea.

    lowkey, on your MLV pic, the rpm is 2271, and the surrounding cells are showing a weigh in. How do you know exactly which value is being used since the rpm columns are 1900, 2350.

    Well I see the table is the AFR, but same applies to fuel maps. If the data sample is between cells, how much are the surrounding cells weighed in on the calculation?

    lowkey, tried to pm you.
    Last edited by rb70383; 06-19-2019 at 11:30 AM.

  2. #82
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    I think you guys confusing acceleration enrichment and how it works. Its not acceleration of the bike but rather the difference between average throttle position and current position. Its only active when throttle is outside the TPS average.
    I had to reread the tuning guide (5.1.4 Acceleration Enrichment) several times.

    Here is a link
    5.1.4 Acceleration Enrichment
    http://www.ecmspy.com/tgv2/guide2.shtml#5.1.4

  3. #83
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rb70383 View Post
    lowkey, on your MLV pic, the rpm is 2271, and the surrounding cells are showing a weigh in. How do you know exactly which value is being used since the rpm columns are 1900, 2350.

    Well I see the table is the AFR, but same applies to fuel maps. If the data sample is between cells, how much are the surrounding cells weighed in on the calculation?

    lowkey, tried to pm you.
    So the ECM is actually processing the fueling table cell that isn't actually there but implied, in this time stamp RPM is 2271 and we have data column 1900RPM and 2350RPM and TPS value of 169 with TPS data rows 175 and 125. So the ECM calculates the cell value for that TPS and RPM value off of the data in the columns and rows we DO have data, it isn't hard to figure it out as it would be a linear line connecting the left cell and right cell column then weighted by RPM we are at in the time stamp away from either side RPM data column, same goes for TPS. Hope that makes since?



    Quote Originally Posted by cossack84 View Post
    I think you guys confusing acceleration enrichment and how it works. Its not acceleration of the bike but rather the difference between average throttle position and current position. Its only active when throttle is outside the TPS average.
    I had to reread the tuning guide (5.1.4 Acceleration Enrichment) several times.

    Here is a link
    5.1.4 Acceleration Enrichment
    http://www.ecmspy.com/tgv2/guide2.shtml#5.1.4
    How so?
    in layman terms TPS average = steady state cruse ( TPS value relatively constant).
    Crack open the throttle and the first sensor data indicating an expectation to accelerate is the TPS sensor, ECM is compensating the rapid fuel requirement needed in this condition with acceleration enrichment... link more or less backs up how I stated it does with my MLV screen shot. How are you interpreting it? Where do I have it wrong?
    A rapidly accelerating TPS value (sensor) on its own requires no fuel, a rapidly accelerating bike (engine) does require the extra fuel though. Need to look at the big picture of what is trying to be accomplished with all these tables.

    Some corrections to my previously posted MLV screen grab, ACCEL enrichment was 13.7 not 37, I was working quickly to post before work. WB AFR reading trails around 2-3 time tamps behind where it actually was showing (delay = 2 or 3 if running analysis).


    MLV with multipliers circled 2.jpg
    Here is the very next time stamp on that log. We can see from TPD (throttle position degrees) we have hit 85 so out of acceleration enrichment threshold. CL/OL/and some of WOT TPS value is below 85 degrees so it CAN and is applied when needed.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by lowkey; 06-19-2019 at 05:23 PM.

  4. #84
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    To figure out 02 sensor delay I went from the time stamp peak TPS value then tapped the right arrow on keyboard to the TPS value drop point spike, counted how many taps for the 02 sensor lean spike and assume this is the delay required. the 02 drop spike lands between 2-3 taps on the time stamp vertical line of the log.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post


    Attachment 11988

    end up with an AFR of 11.38-1 when we want 13.0-1AFR as asked by the AFRbins map at this cell (lots of work to do in this example to remove fuel for target AFR).
    lowkey, the reason AFR is at 11.38 instead of 13.0 is because the cell in which you want 13.0 is at steady state throttle application. If you held throttle at 175 and RPM at 2350 for throttle position to average 175 then your afr will be at 13.0. However, in the screen grab above, looks like, throttle was quickly opened, which in turn activated acceleration enrichment. From tuning guide "Acceleration Enrichment is applied when the throttle is opened fast ". Again its doesn't matter what the engine is doing when accel enrichment is applied, only thing that counts is how far away from average throttle position current location of the butterfly is.

    Quote Originally Posted by lowkey View Post
    So the ECM is actually processing the fueling table cell that isn't actually there but implied, in this time stamp RPM is 2271 and we have data column 1900RPM and 2350RPM and TPS value of 169 with TPS data rows 175 and 125. So the ECM calculates the cell value for that TPS and RPM value off of the data in the columns and rows we DO have data, it isn't hard to figure it out as it would be a linear line connecting the left cell and right cell column then weighted by RPM we are at in the time stamp away from either side RPM data column, same goes for TPS. Hope that makes since?





    How so?
    in layman terms TPS average = steady state cruse ( TPS value relatively constant).
    Crack open the throttle and the first sensor data indicating an expectation to accelerate is the TPS sensor, ECM is compensating the rapid fuel requirement needed in this condition with acceleration enrichment... link more or less backs up how I stated it does with my MLV screen shot. How are you interpreting it? Where do I have it wrong?
    A rapidly accelerating TPS value (sensor) on its own requires no fuel, a rapidly accelerating bike (engine) does require the extra fuel though. Need to look at the big picture of what is trying to be accomplished with all these tables.

    Some corrections to my previously posted MLV screen grab, ACCEL enrichment was 13.7 not 37, I was working quickly to post before work. WB AFR reading trails around 2-3 time tamps behind where it actually was showing (delay = 2 or 3 if running analysis).


    MLV with multipliers circled 2.jpg
    Here is the very next time stamp on that log. We can see from TPD (throttle position degrees) we have hit 85 so out of acceleration enrichment threshold. CL/OL/and some of WOT TPS value is below 85 degrees so it CAN and is applied when needed.
    I dont think its a steady state cruise, its more like 10 or so revolutions of the engine, so its very quick to respond. Which it has to considering one can crack the throttle rather fast from idle to wide open.
    I believe carburetors have similar mechanical feature called accelerator circuit?

  6. #86
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cossack84 View Post
    lowkey, the reason AFR is at 11.38 instead of 13.0 is because the cell in which you want 13.0 is at steady state throttle application. If you held throttle at 175 and RPM at 2350 for throttle position to average 175 then your afr will be at 13.0.
    Totally agree with this and what you are interpreting the screen grab is saying, I also fully understand why it is richer than expected (and at the time of this log is exactly what I wanted to be happening). What can't be seen is the adjustments done to the fuel table corresponding to this log and the time stamp we are discussing. This is an old log, from last year when I was just starting to work on logs within MLV. I first took AFV 105% (from the last ride before disabling 02 sensor and locking AFV EGO to 100%) and applied to the entire map that 5% (AND an additional 3% IIRC?) aside from idle and decel cells, my method when turning OFF the 02 sensor was to have overly rich map to pull fuel with MLV, this way I don't have to worry about a lean condition while logging over and over 02 OFF. So the cell value on the fuel table is already overly rich by my design, then scale them back the cells with analysis until the entire map was dialed in to the AFRbins I set up. Now after this is all done we can go through the log and see just how close to ideal acceleration enrichment does, then work on its scaling secondary.

    Again this is an early log and we cannot judge what the multipliers are doing until the AFRbin targets are met, again it isn't a concern at this step of my process as this condition is filtered from analysis in MLV.

    Quote Originally Posted by cossack84 View Post
    However, in the screen grab above, looks like, throttle was quickly opened, which in turn activated acceleration enrichment. From tuning guide "Acceleration Enrichment is applied when the throttle is opened fast ". Again its doesn't matter what the engine is doing when accel enrichment is applied, only thing that counts is how far away from average throttle position current location of the butterfly is.
    I really don't know where you are seeing a discrepancy in my explanation??? YES it does matter what the engine is doing when acceleration enrichment is applied, the rider is inputting AND expecting acceleration via the right grip in turn the TPS sensor.

    Mechanically the engine is ingesting more air and climbing in RPM rapidly and requires the fueling from acceleration enrichment in this state at that time. There is absolutely no reason for this multiplier to exist without what the engine is actually doing...

  7. #87
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    Acceleration enrichment only last one revolution of the engine, once the average throttle position is equal to current throttle position acceleration enrichment is zero, but the engine can still be speeding up/revving up even thought accel enrichment is zero.
    If you agree with that then I miss read your post.

    Edit: you think acceleration in this context is "acceleration of the engine/bike" but its not, its acceleration of the throttle grip it self (throttle butterfly). Its how fast the throttle is changing, not how fast engine is revving up.
    Last edited by cossack84; 06-19-2019 at 07:01 PM.

  8. #88
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cossack84 View Post
    Acceleration enrichment only last one revolution of the engine, once the average throttle position is equal to current throttle position acceleration enrichment is zero, but the engine can still be speeding up/revving up even thought accel enrichment is zero.
    If you agree with that then I miss read your post.
    1.) No you misread your link from the ECMSpy chapter, it is calculated and applied EACH one revolution of the engine. From my original time stamp with acceleration enrichment = 13.7, in the log leading up to this enrichment percentage was as follows:
    ------0/10.9/22.3/12.7/11.5/13.7/0-------
    MLV log zoomed in.jpg

    Given the resolution in the log is much less than each engine revolution and just looking above in the top graph of RPM we can see acceleration enrichment lasts far longer than 1 revolution I think you can agree with my interpretation of the ECMSpy chapter that you linked.

    2.) YES and NO, the only situation the engine can still be speeding up/revving without TPS degrees also climbing would be TPD max 85 degrees, this is moot because acceleration enrichment threshold is 80 degrees, but yes max throttle held from idle to redline RPM would be the same TPS value of 255 throughout that experiment.

    Quote Originally Posted by cossack84 View Post
    Edit: you think acceleration in this context is "acceleration of the engine/bike" but its not, its acceleration of the throttle grip it self (throttle butterfly). Its how fast the throttle is changing, not how fast engine is revving up.
    1.) Acceleration of TPS degree is directly a request on acceleration of the engine... they are tied together. Can you show one instance TPS is accelerated and the engine does not also accelerate (other than a TPS spike and fall that is to quick for the engine response to follow?)

    2.) Never stated anything to do with how fast the engine is revved up being part of the scenario... but IS the byproduct of the butterfly opening and ingesting more air being the reason for this multipliers existence.

    I am now done with this subject and it was only brought up in the first place for those that think running off the fuel map cell value is the only thing to consider when there are a TON of multipliers at play. We can discuss over the phone or email further I guess...

    cossack84 I thank you for pointing out the 80 in this table referenced TPD, now if I ever get to the point of needing to modify it I can back down this value to the low/mid open loop area where I've already hit the desired AFR no enrichment needed.

  9. #89
    Senior Member lowkey's Avatar
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    I revisited the table and saw it has a TPD 80*at 1200RPM and jump to 85*at 2000RPM, here is what it would look like overlaid on the fuel map, any TPD value below this line can have acceleration enrichment applied.

    Acceleration enrichment TPD line.jpg

    Sorry my MS paint skills are lacking but from 2000RPM the top TPS (255 row) cells cannot have acceleration enrichment, the line leading up to 1200RPM would fall below this TPS value but above the next lowest TPS value (175 row). Visualize the line dropped down just a bit from where I drew it over the map.
    Last edited by lowkey; 06-19-2019 at 09:25 PM.

  10. #90
    Senior Member rb70383's Avatar
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    Yes lowkey, that makes perfect sense.

    For the timing map request...

    I missed a "27" Apparently I don't hit that cell a lot. Also my CSE enrichment. I rode in 30 degree weather and bike started better then 'stock'. YMMV


    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by rb70383; 06-19-2019 at 10:59 PM.

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